Why did Moenghus leave Ishual

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« on: April 19, 2013, 02:15:30 pm »
Quote from: harrol
I do not believe we really know why. Kellhus feeds Cnaiur a very believable story about a roaming Sranc band that stumbles across the citadel. Supposedly the band was quickly killed and Moe was sent out to recon and discover if Ishual secret was safe. Upon return he is sent into exile due to being tainted. This is a very believable story until one considers that Kellhus did not even know what a sranc track looked like so he had to ask Leweth. Additionally after fighting the sranc band, prior to meeting the non-man he questions, what manner of creatures are these? Then when he is about to engage the nonman in a fight he thinks, Another one of Leweth's myths come true. All this leads me to believe that the story Kel told Cnaiur is a fabrication and that we still don't know the real reason Moe was sent out.

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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 02:16:10 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I could believe they simply don't 'chat' amongst their own - those who deal with sranc just don't communicate about it with neophytes. Kellhus has simply figured what the occasional outer wall event was. But yeah, it would be interesting if it was a fabrication and if so, why? What was Moenghus doing - unless he just figured something out whilst inside the walls one day, and left (maybe found some rune left in the walls that hadn't been chisled out, or some evidence of the magic coverup conspiracy).

What I find odd is the 'exile'. Oh, like hell! I mean when Moenghus touches Dunyain in dreams, they all go off to kill themselves. These guys wouldn't just let someone go - they'd kill Moenghus, not exile him! Unless exile is just a convenient term for 'he escaped'.

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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 02:16:18 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Interesting thought.  the arduous path up a glacier explains why Sranc never came a calling other than the band that stumbled upon them... supposedly.  But it's hard to imagine Sranc bothering.

The damn map case was open, perhaps a nonman, inchoroi, or human found it and a band of the above (rather than a band of Sranc) found Ishual? 

I think I'll just take the textual reason for now, but it's a question I hadn't considered before, but one that seems 'flagged' by the auhtor, when I look at it now.

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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 02:16:24 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I wonder if the order actually sent Moenghus out - some sort of test run? That went wrong?

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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 02:16:32 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
This is a speculation that I have raised before.
There are other points that I feel may be relevant.

Did the dunyain refugees discover Ishual by blind luck?  Where else would they have been headed in the ruined north under shadow of Golgotteroth?
It's possible that the unnamed old man who led them knew Seswatha, perhaps it even was Seswatha.
More likely than them finding the map at Sauglish and then just leaving it there.  (Although  Kellhus could have recently planted it there for Akka, I guess.)

When the Dunyain discover the last scion of the Anasurimbor, it is described as a fortuitous correspondence of cause.  What is the correspondence between the objectives of the Consult's greatest latter-day opponents and the dunyain's quest for the transcendent self moving soul? 
It doesn't seem like an appropriate way to exclaim that they found some excellent genetic stock anyway.

And then Moeghus leaves Ishual and enters the three seas in accordance with an ancient prophecy that only Seswatha and his gnostic heirs have perpetuated for reasons that seem extremely untenable.  Divine or engineered coincidence?

So many apparent coincidences suggest that its either all a part of some ancient plan of the dunyain founders that Kellhus is ignorant of, or the Whore or the solitary god manipulating fate on a massive scale.

If we take the interpretation of the white luck as a manipulation of causality, could we interpret the dunyain quest as one to obtain mastery of the power of the gods?  Could the no-god itself be important to the dunyain objectives?

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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 02:16:39 pm »
Quote from: harrol
In the book it said the Dunyain celebrated a fortuidous correspondence of cause upon finding Ishual. It sounds like a complete coincedence. By the way I am sorry for all the misspellings.

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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 02:16:46 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Ah, I thought it was upon finding the lil Anasurimbor. 
Still, just where the fuck did they think they were going?  Running to the hills is one thing, running to the glaciers full of rape goblins in enemy territory quite another.
Atrihau would seem the obvious destination after the fall of Sauglish, but I guess its possible they thought they could go around the Demua mountains and get jobs as slaves at Ishtiberinth.

If you're going to apologize for misspelling, I will have to as well.  This dang embedded spell checker is using an American dictionary.

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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 02:17:00 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote
Did the dunyain refugees discover Ishual by blind luck?
The world conspires? Same thing that has Cnair find Kellhus sitting incapacitated upon Cnair's fathers grave?

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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 02:17:10 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Yeh, still gotta have some reason for heading north in the first place. 
Legions of the no-god to the frozen north, last city of the norasai to the east, all the other refugees heading south...

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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2013, 02:17:18 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
It's possible they were simply driven into the mountains. The Sranc would presumably be mobbing behind all the refugees fleeing south. Could be that the lagging members were forced to turn northwest away from the hordes.

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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2013, 02:17:57 pm »
Quote from: cielago
Quote from: Curethan
Running to the hills is one thing, running to the glaciers full of rape goblins in enemy territory quite another.

 :lol:

this has always bothered me. i didn't catch the bit in WLW that the map case was open. The more the story goes on, the more and more i think we can be skeptical of how "true" the events of the first trilogy are. We cant really take that at face value.

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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 02:18:10 pm »
Quote from: Blackstone
Quote from: The Sharmat
It's possible they were simply driven into the mountains. The Sranc would presumably be mobbing behind all the refugees fleeing south. Could be that the lagging members were forced to turn northwest away from the hordes.
Quote

I'm fairly certain that the book never mentions where they were actually traveling from. Ishual could have just been in their way, or they thought they could go up over the mountains to have a natural barrier in between them and the Sranc.

As far as Moe. Kellhus had no idea what the Sranc were (pg 26 TDTCB), so I doubt the story of Sranc attacking Ishual is true. I don't think enough has been revealed for us to know why Moe left, unless there is something I am missing from his conversation with Kellhus in TTT.

Edit: I went back and read the Kellhus/Moe passages. Kellhus does make mention that Moe was exiled. So why he was exiled is the real question.

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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 02:18:15 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
The dunyain were originally based in Sauglish. Thus the assumption that that was their point of departure.

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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 02:18:25 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Kind of on topic: I was wondering if the thousand fold thought is actually using other peoples brains, conditioned by hypnosis, to process data. Then perhaps reading them all via the fire spying spell (this is why Moenghus could not attain the TTT)?

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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 02:18:33 pm »
Quote from: Borric
Quote from: Blackstone
Quote from: The Sharmat
Kellhus does make mention that Moe was exiled. So why he was exiled is the real question.


Iím amazed he was exiled.
When you consider they killed there brothers who Moe contacted via dreams.