The heart

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Triskele

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« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2014, 09:09:14 pm »
I think that I read somewhere that Caraskand was loosely based off of the Battle of Antioch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Antioch



Quote
On Monday, 28 June, the crusaders emerged from the city gate,[33] with Raymond of Aguilers carrying the Holy Lance before them. Kerbogha hesitated against his generals' pleadings, hoping to attack them all at once rather than one division at a time, but he underestimated their size. He pretended to retreat to draw the crusaders to rougher terrain, while his archers continuously pelted the advancing crusaders with arrows. A detachment was dispatched to the crusader left wing, which was not protected by the river, but Bohemond quickly formed a seventh division and beat them back. The Turks were inflicting many casualties, including Adhemar's standard-bearer, and Kerbogha set fire to the grass between his position and the crusaders, but this did not deter them: they had visions of three saints riding along with them: St. George, St. Demetrius, and St. Maurice. The battle was brief and disastrous for the Turks. Duqaq deserted Kerbogha and this desertion reduced the great numerical advantage the Muslim army had over its Christian opponents. Soon the defeated Muslim troops were in panicked retreat.


locke

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« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2014, 09:19:27 pm »
The fact that it's an exception is the important thing. It proves that the halos are not necessarily something inherent to Kellhus himself, because someone else was perceived to have them.
No it says serwe sees what she already expects to see.  It doesnt disprove anything about what shes seen on kellhus.  How much color do you literally see in your peripheral vision and how much color does your brain edit into what you are seeing because that's what you expect your eyes to show you?

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2014, 12:58:29 am »
When someone that doesn't believe Kellhus is divine sees him possessing halos, then I'll believe there's something special about him producing them, instead of the effect originating with the observer.

locke

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« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2014, 06:11:11 am »
Why isolate it to the watcher when there's a significant textual indicator that the to-be-looked-at-ness is just as important as the looking.

I think i had a post once that delved into the question of how skin spies would have to have some metaphysical component as well, obviously the mandate skin spy would have to appear to have the mark to all his fellow sorcerers to pull off the illudion.

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2014, 02:22:24 pm »
Why isolate it to the watcher when there's a significant textual indicator that the to-be-looked-at-ness is just as important as the looking.
Explain further?

I think i had a post once that delved into the question of how skin spies would have to have some metaphysical component as well, obviously the mandate skin spy would have to appear to have the mark to all his fellow sorcerers to pull off the illudion.
We can't extrapolate much from the Mandate skin-spy metaphysically compared to the others given that he had a soul.

Wic

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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2014, 07:23:22 pm »
There are a few quotes throughout the series that indicate the value of 'witnessing', much of it in Kell's lectures (which are prone to be lies used for manipulation, but the Dunyain know how easily you can manipulate with the truth instead), and the importance of the Judging Eye lends credence to that. 

Perhaps the fact that the God (or any god) can only judge by holding witness lends credence to that.

locke

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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2014, 08:18:47 pm »
Circuit of watcher and watched that underwrites all of existence.

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2014, 08:30:55 pm »
I'm still not sure what that means.

locke

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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2014, 08:43:42 pm »
Well you're dismissing the entire principle of watcher/watched in the effort to discredit serwe based on the skin spy datum. When one is watched one has a metaphysical connection to the one watching. 

It's very likely serwe is right about kellhus and kellhus is wrong about himself especially because kellhus never considers the possibility.

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2014, 09:00:06 pm »
No I mean what is "the principle of watcher/watched"? I don't get it.

When one is watched one has a metaphysical connection to the one watching. 
What kind of connection? What does that have to do with the halos? And how do we know this is true in the first place?

And if this is as true of the skin-spy as it is of Kellhus then it doesn't really mean anything special about Kellhus.


It's very likely serwe is right about kellhus and kellhus is wrong about himself especially because kellhus never considers the possibility.
Do you mean right in thinking him divine? Kellhus does think that, eventually.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 09:01:52 pm by The Sharmat »

locke

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« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2014, 10:07:55 pm »
Yeah but it might not be true anymore when he thinks it

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2014, 10:32:02 pm »
So wait you're saying that you think Kellhus was only divine when he was a Dunyain playing a False Prophet so as to move the world to his own ends, and as soon as he became a self professed prophet in truth he actually lost divine status and just became another deluded world born man?

Funky.

I mean I'm not sure I believe any of it, but interesting concept.

locke

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« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2014, 10:47:06 pm »
Why not?  Divine favor may be fickle, and kellhus may have only been favored by the gods so long as he was a conduit by which to right the wrongs done to serwe.  Once she was redeemed they probably lost interest in him.

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2014, 10:52:45 pm »
SPOILERS
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Wilshire

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« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2014, 02:43:21 pm »
The circle was watcher/watched is something I've never fully understood either.

The scene with the spy and the haloes indicated just what The Sharmat said, that belief is enough to effect 'objective' reality. It shows this rule, but I'm sure others can read more or less into it if they wish.
One of the other conditions of possibility.