Serwe: The horns...but I haven't heard the horns...

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What Came Before

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« on: April 19, 2013, 02:48:09 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Rereading, there's a bit on page 45 of my copy where Kellhus goes to wake up Serwe, but she complains about the horns - she hasn't heard the horns yet. Then shortly after in the text, horns sound.

To me this implies something about Serwe - that she is perhaps tied into some sequence of events that she actively complains when she is not woken up at the right time, which is to be woken by the horns sounding. Like he sleeping mind sees this forward path and anticipates quiet slumber until the alarm clock of destiny runs - and so complains when the alarm is early.

Speculation?

locke

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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 12:02:28 am »
Serwe references the horns again at the beginning of the interro rape sequence.

Callan S.

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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 02:29:41 am »
Serwe references the horns again at the beginning of the interro rape sequence.
Does she? Damn, I wish I'd noticed that! What's it mean?

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 05:24:48 pm »
Post WLW I would say 'the horns' could refer to some kind of wake up ritual. Like a bugle call that wakes up the army each morning. But the fact that Golgotterath is always described with some reference to its Horns makes that explanation seem wanting.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Baztek

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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 05:43:46 pm »
Something is really weird about Serwe. In the last board I suggested that Serwe's purity (or the purity of souls like Serwe) are the fulcrum on which Earwa's metaphysics hinge. Since the God is the Source, it stands to reason he is Perfection. Her worship and devotion to Kellhus must have cemented his divine status in the sleeping ur-soul that is God. If the God "awoke" or was an active agent in the affairs of Earwa - assuming he isn't after all - then the Goodness that Serwe represents would not have been so easily fooled. But since Kellhus is able to wow and dazzle the one being most similar to God in moral constitution, everyone else follows suit will little resistance.

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 07:27:54 pm »
There is nothing to say that the gods, or the god, cannot be fooled. Kellhus could have very well convinced the outside agency that he is some kind of higher divinity.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Baztek

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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 09:10:14 pm »
Individual gods, yes, but I seriously doubt a single soul could fool the immanent being it helps comprise.

Crtha

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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2013, 12:10:34 am »
Depends whether the God is immanent in any way other than 'impartial' judgement. 
For me, Serwe represents innocence, therefore her 'judgement' is unclouded by mundane (i.e. subjective) truths.
On the question of Kellhus being able to fool the divine, remember; "You are the one soul I need not teach."
I don't remember Khellus ever decieving Serwe. 
She says something about his assumed divinity and Kellhus responds by telling her its a sham ("I am just the promise").
Even on the subject of Cnaiur, he just tells her she has to put up with the barbarian because Khellus needs him.
She tells Kellhus her baby is his and he's all like "nuh-uh" and she accuses Kellhus of trying to hurt her.  He responds by accepting it as the truth...

On topic, imo the horns are just the call to wake the encampments and get the army moving and Serwe likes to sleep.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2013, 12:19:07 am »
Well I would say that the 'individual gods' and an 'immanent god' are two entirely different things. The so-called Gods (as they are referred to every time in the appendix) are just power-hungry ciphrang, while the one god, may be something more. It is likely, in my mind, that he could end up fooling one of the hundred, but if there is a One God who has some kind of omnipotence, that would be much more difficult (and far less likely. I would say impossible).
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Crtha

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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2013, 12:31:51 am »
Agree there Wilshire.  Talking about the uber-god in this context. 
Although I lean towards omniscience over omnipotence. 
Indications so far are the the God does nothing but sees all.

Again (off topic), I raise the point that Ciphrang have been described as having angelic manifestations as well as demonic.  The term 'hunger' as Bakker uses it, arises from desribing base motivational desires that inform action but are disconnected from cold reason.  I think there is an interpretive tendency for us readers to give this entirely negative connotations.  As you put it; 'power-hungry'.
But what about the 'hunger' for essentials?  Shelter, love, community etc. 

Consider Yatwer's portfolio; birth, fertility and altruistic giving.  All concepts relating to primitive community.  These are the things that she prizes, the things she hungers for.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2013, 04:09:53 pm »
I don't remember Khellus ever decieving Serwe. 
She says something about his assumed divinity and Kellhus responds by telling her its a sham ("I am just the promise").

It would be greatly amusing if the biggest suprise of TUC is that Kellhus dies like Paul Atreides and the real protagonist of the metaseries is his Leto-II like son.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 04:15:58 pm »
EkyannusIII you may be interested in this link if you havent been through it already.

http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/dune-frank-herbert-and-tsa-bakker-t1243938.html
One of the other conditions of possibility.

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 04:45:09 pm »
EkyannusIII you may be interested in this link if you havent been through it already.

http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/dune-frank-herbert-and-tsa-bakker-t1243938.html

Thread strikes gold on the second page, thanks Wilshire:

Quote from: Madness
Character parallels have been a pretty distinct for me. Moenghus the Elder is Paul. Paul doesn't see/doesn't accept his place in the symbiosis or Leto sees farther/accepts his Father's denied fate.

Bullseye.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 06:05:17 pm »
Yeah I thought you might like that. I'd always interested in talking about dune/TSA stuff.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2014, 03:42:24 am »
I find it interesting how the readers seem to get caught up in Kellhus' deception of divinity at roughly the same pace Kellhus does.

That "I am the Promise" line meant nothing.  It conveyed no infomation. That was the point. She could put anything she wanted into it and so be satisfied. And so she became Kellhus' willing slave. At that stage in his existence, Kellhus talks to people the same way you'd put coins in a vending machine. It's simply an action meant to trigger a desired conditioned response.