A question about Saubon at Mengedda

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« on: April 19, 2013, 02:48:49 pm »
Quote from: Mog Kellhus
I have a question about the battle of Mengedda.

During the battle Saubon's old friend-manservant Kussalt died at his master's hands.Before he died he told Saubon i would have you know how much i hated you.. which shocked Saubon.Do you believe that it was really Kussalt speaking or something else happened there?Also during the same battle Saubon saw his own corpse among the dead.Did these incidents had only to do with the cursed plain of Mengedda or did something happened to Saubon there which we have yet to discover?

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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 02:48:56 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
There was lot of crazy shit happening at Mengedda.  Bones rising from the ground etc.  It wasn't just Saubon. 
I think that Kussalt was genuine - Saubon really is a jerk.

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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 02:49:04 pm »
Quote from: Brother_Jacob
Agreed with Curethan, Saubon is simply just a bit of a cock.  Great character though, and clearly modelled after Richard the Lionheart. Quite a rash general though, slightly concerned that he's been given so much responsibility, but perhaps he's tempered this rashness given he's now more mature (and to be fair many of his rash decisions were driven by insecurity/ambition).

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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 02:49:10 pm »
Quote from: Mog Kellhus
Yes i also liked Saubon at PON its a shame we don't see much of him at AE so far.Perhaps he still has a role to play at UC there must be a reason Scott kept him around.

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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 02:49:17 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I would hazard that if you conceive of Kellhus' manipulations in TTT, Saubon has been largely misconstrued to the reader and also compromised as his own man.

Arguably, Kellhus knew Conphas had a relatively good chance of succeeding in any plans he had to betray the Holy War. So he manipulates one of the largest contingents to stay in Caraskand by wrapping Saubon in cognitive dissonance, which he wrestles with only for exactly long enough to decide to follow the Holy War to Shimeh, thus finishing the job Achamian started. Kellhus clearly couldn't have counted on Achamian being there and Saubon satisfies too large a variable by being there for it not have be premeditated.

And the King of Caraskand is lulled deeper into Kellhus' mechanisms because he cannot but regret doubting his Prophet.

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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 02:49:30 pm »
Quote from: Tony P
Quote from: Brother_Jacob
Agreed with Curethan, Saubon is simply just a bit of a cock.  Great character though, and clearly modelled after Richard the Lionheart. Quite a rash general though, slightly concerned that he's been given so much responsibility, but perhaps he's tempered this rashness given he's now more mature (and to be fair many of his rash decisions were driven by insecurity/ambition).

Since Scott follows the First Crusade so closely, I think it's more likely Saubon is based on Bohemund of Taranto/Bohemund I of Antioch. He was a son with an uncertain inheritance (Saubon was a younger son), and joined the Crusade largely to carve out a territory of his own, all the while scheming with and against the other leaders. Once the crusaders took Antioch (he was instrumental in its fall, but before it fell he asked the other leaders to swear an oath that he could have Antioch once it had fallen), he subsequently stayed their, the crusade itself be damned. This echoes Saubon behaviour, i.e. favouring the valuable materialistic prize over the actual purpose of the holy war.


Quote from: Madness
Arguably, Kellhus knew Conphas had a relatively good chance of succeeding in any plans he had to betray the Holy War. So he manipulates one of the largest contingents to stay in Caraskand by wrapping Saubon in cognitive dissonance, which he wrestles with only for exactly long enough to decide to follow the Holy War to Shimeh, thus finishing the job Achamian started. Kellhus clearly couldn't have counted on Achamian being there and Saubon satisfies too large a variable by being there for it not have be premeditated.

And the King of Caraskand is lulled deeper into Kellhus' mechanisms because he cannot but regret doubting his Prophet.

I quite agree. It has Kellhus' manipulations written all over it.

Except for his servant, Kussalt. He just hates Saubon, who reeks or moral bankruptcy from the start.

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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 02:49:34 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I like to think Saubon was not going to be enough and that the world conspired to have Achamian be there, to just tip the balance.

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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 03:47:23 am »
I hadn't initially considered it, but in hindsight, yeah, the combination of that being the absolute worst thing Saubon could have heard at the absolute worst time possible (I felt bad for him there, jerk or no jerk. The line clearly shatters him.) and the fact that Mengedda is a thin spot where Outside can seep through makes me think that was just a little bit of Hell peeking in. A burp of reality conforming to Saubon's own imagined fears and insecurities.

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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2014, 01:41:34 pm »
A burp of reality conforming to Saubon's own imagined fears and insecurities.

+1
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Garet Jax

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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2015, 07:46:10 pm »
I think Kussalt was speaking honestly and there was no distortion from the topos.  I am pretty much basing this all on a line from Kellhus' POV in TWP.


"... Saubon, Kellhus knew, thought the ways of his own people rude.  With every breath he waged war with who he was."


Maybe everyone thought Saubon was a dick.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:21:43 pm by Garet Jax »

Francis Buck

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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2015, 08:06:54 am »
It's also rather similar to Cnaiur's scene with his uncle at Kiyuth, or at least I remember thinking that at one point. Haven't actually compared the two.

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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2015, 02:06:49 pm »
GJ, I think you are missing a comma... it took me several tries to parse that quote.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:26:06 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Garet Jax

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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 02:22:33 pm »
Fixed.   :-[

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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 05:26:25 am »
I think Kussalt was speaking honestly and there was no distortion from the topos.  I am pretty much basing this all on a line from Kellhus' POV in TWP.


"... Saubon, Kellhus knew, thought the ways of his own people rude.  With every breath he waged war with who he was."


Maybe everyone thought Saubon was a dick.

i agree-- i think the 'magic' of Kussalt's dying works were that he was suddenly able to be honest, perhaps that would be impossible anywhere be dying on a topoi.  don't let me die there, i don't want my tongue loosened in the end!

The Sharmat

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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 07:58:01 pm »
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