Cnaiur and Fate, After Anwurat

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locke

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« on: April 22, 2013, 12:17:22 am »
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Cnair looked down, startled. A young woman, her leg slicked in blood, an infant strapped to her back, clutched his knee, beseeching him in some unknown tongue. He raised his boot to kick her, then unaccountably lowered it. He leaned forward and hoisted her before him onto his saddle. She fairly shrieked tears. He wheeled his black around and spurred after the fleeing camp-followers.

He heard an arrow buzz by his ear.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 6508-6511). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
She appears moments after he draws his sword to face down innumerable of kianene cavalry who have just recognized him.  After he takes her into his saddle the arrow misses.  Fate.

Sections change, then this.
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The woman alternately looked forward, then yanked her head backward to the Kianene as did, absurdly, her black-haired infant. Strange, Cnair thought, the way infants knew when to be calm. Suddenly Fanim horsemen erupted through the northern entrance as well. He swerved to the right, galloped along the airy white tents, searching for a way to barge between. When he saw none, he raced for the corner. More and more Kianene thundered through the eastern entrance, fanning across the field. Those behind pounded nearer. Several more arrows whisked through the air about them. He wheeled his black about, knocked the woman face first onto the dusty turf. The babe finally started screeching. He tossed her a knife to cut through canvas

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 6538-6543). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Quote
Who, Cnair roared, so fiercely all his skin seemed throat, will murder me?

A piercing, feminine cry. Cnair glanced back, saw the nameless woman swaying at the entrance of the nearest tent. She gripped the knife hed thrown her, gestured with it for him to follow. For an instant, it seemed hed always known her, that theyd been lovers for long years. He saw sunlight flash through the far side of the tent where shed cut open the canvas. Then he glimpsed a shadow from above, heard something not quite

Several Kianene cried out a different terror.

Cnair thrust his left hand beneath his girdle, clutched tight his fathers Trinket.

For an instant he met the womans wide uncomprehending eyes, and over her shoulder, those of her baby boy as well Somehow he knew that now that he was a son. He tried to cry out. They became shadows in a cataract of shimmering flame.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 6564-6566). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

So did Cnaiur ride through the camps with the Whore herself that day?  Particularly note the part I bolded.   She, with the infant boy, an infant that Cnaiur recognizes as only a boy at the end (in a preternatural 'knowing') seem to symbolically be Serwe and her infant son, she more or less guides Cnaiur through the warzone of the camps to the protection of the Scarlet Spires, and this allows Cnaiur to get to Serwe.  Would Fate, that capricious whore, take an avatar only to discard it into the flames of sorcery?  Note that she even cuts his escape route through the canvas, knows without his telling what he meant for her to do when he tossed her his knife.

It all seems extremely frought with Gods interference on a reread.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 05:03:28 pm by locke »

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 07:38:26 pm »
I think there might be more than meets the eye in this passage, but I actually disagree with the section you put in bold being significant. That specific sentence looks to me like a man in desperation, finding similarities between a woman and child that might have looked like someone he knew in the past. Or perhaps finding a kindred spirit in the common flight of a common enemy.

Other sections, like the original passage where the arrow misses, sees like it could be fate. How hard would it be to hit a stationary man on a horse? That said, later, when more arrows miss, I think that could just be difficulties hitting a moving target from horseback and much less likely to be some kind of intervention.

I didn't think that the 'whore of fate' was actually a goddess, more of an idea to describe chance, but turns out I forgot about the Goddess Anagke (The Goddess of fortune, also known as "the Whore of Fate").
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Crtha

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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 12:21:22 am »
Tend to agree that outside agencies might active here.  Crack-pot speculations to follow...

With Cnaiur I suspect Gilgaol or Lokung are the entities that would have an interest in him and manipulating events through him.
Gilgaol would be inclined to reward Cnaiur's personification of warlike attributes by leveraging events to allow him to wreak greater carnage (i.e. not die at that juncture) - and remember War and Birth alone may seize (so Cnaiur need not be an adherent to recieve the god's 'blessing').

Lokung as an outside entity I could see as a key to the creation of the No-god.  Explaining why the Scylvendi are important to the consult and their culture remains locked in a ossified and unevolving state.  Their existence and continued worship of their dead divity might be important to the no-gods resurrection and the manner in which Kellhus communes with him.  Considering Cnaiur's importance in revealing certain things to the consult after surviving the events in question, Lokung might have motivation in manipulating said events to ensure his reincarnation as the no-god. 

Disinclined to agree about Fate being the mover.  She seems depicted as the kind of entity that goes for ironic lols at the expense of her pawns.
 
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

locke

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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2013, 04:58:38 pm »
I think there might be more than meets the eye in this passage, but I actually disagree with the section you put in bold being significant. That specific sentence looks to me like a man in desperation, finding similarities between a woman and child that might have looked like someone he knew in the past. Or perhaps finding a kindred spirit in the common flight of a common enemy.

Other sections, like the original passage where the arrow misses, sees like it could be fate. How hard would it be to hit a stationary man on a horse? That said, later, when more arrows miss, I think that could just be difficulties hitting a moving target from horseback and much less likely to be some kind of intervention.

I didn't think that the 'whore of fate' was actually a goddess, more of an idea to describe chance, but turns out I forgot about the Goddess Anagke (The Goddess of fortune, also known as "the Whore of Fate").

In terms of difficulty, Cnaiur is drawing arrows and firing back and hitting a target every time.  I think the passage I bolded is important, because besides the symbolic significance of a woman having just given birth, that bolded passage is what indicates some supernatural connection, any warrior who has lived as long as Cnaiur has been one of Fate's "lovers" for many years.  In this world there is no chance or happenstance or lucky breaks, Cnaiur has been surviving for a long time for a reason. And his recognition in that moment seems to indicate the woman is more than what she seems.

**
As for the assertion it was Gilgaol, that doesn't make sense because Cnaiur enters this scene on the basis of FLEEING from battle and war, I think in those circumstances, Gilgaol wouldn't be riding him as he probably does in other circumstances.  However WHY did Cnaiur flee?  He fled to save Serwe.  Again, not a circumstance that Gilgaol would favor (saving a woman, a whore, why should a warrior care about such things?).  However it does seem like a circumstance that FATE might favor, Cnaiur risking himself and his reputation and SACRIFICING the battle for a whore (like fate).

And also note after this sequence, when Kellhus meets Cnaiur he discovers that Cnaiur's face has been wiped completely blank and that he can no longer read him.  this plays into why he keeps Cnaiur around, though Kellhus does a blindingly obvious post-hoc rationalization that it is pity he feels (look at the text, Kellhus doesn't have a thought that could be construed as pity, he recognizes a blank face and then does a rationalization that he feels pity and stops thinking about the disturbing fact of the blank-faceness (heuristic compression?)).  The only other instance we can really 'assume' that Kellhus encounters a face he cannot read is Sorweel who was blessed by a god...

And if you really want to get into conspiracy theories, Cnaiur is blessed by Fate so he can save Serwe.  Fate causes Cnaiur to draw the battle to the encampment of the Scarlet Spires, which turns the defeat at Anwurat into a nominal victory.  Fate doing this allows Cnaiur to save Serwe.  By Saving Serwe, Fate preserves Serwe for the upcoming Circumfix.  By blessing Cnaiur, Fate causes Kellhus to preserve the only character who can do battle with a Skinspy and defeat them in open combat (at the Circumfix).  Fate, by getting Cnaiur to abandon/sacrifice the battle, assures a later victory at the Circumfix.  Because Kellhus intended to kill Cnaiur but was MOVED by something he did not grok (just like when he WITNESSED the rape of Serwe).  Kellhus being typical blind Kellhus attributes this Movement to world-born emotions (like pity), when the reader should be thinking it is possible that Kellhus is being manipulated by the Gods in these instances, yet his arrogance blinds him to their presence and maneuvering.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 05:05:40 pm by locke »

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2013, 08:05:04 pm »
No need to only refer to the Goddess of Fortune as the Whore. Drawing her inclination towards whores makes her seem like Yatwer or (insert other goddess name here).

Anyway, hitting a moving target whilst on horesback seems like a bit of a blessing too doesn't it? Maybe he is being favored by both Fortune and War at the same time? Though that to me is attributing WAY to much to the gods (who IMO have only shown minimal involvement beyond what we have seen from Yatwer).  There is such thing as luck and happenstance and the Wold Conspiring, which all happen outside the wants of Gods. Why force everything that happens to be the will of god? Seems a bit too biased for me to agree with fully.
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Crtha

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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 12:11:03 am »
It's not an inclination towards whores, Wilshire.  Agnake is refered to as the whore because you don't get anything for free...  the implication is that for each turn of good fortune you get a corresponding kick in the balls.  Akka constantly refers to this.  Prime example, every instance of luck that gets him to Ishual has corresponding horrific turns of bad luck - ultimately he gets there but its completely ruined.
(click to show/hide)

PoN is far more circumspect in attributing any real agency to the gods - there are only mild hints - like this instance with Cnauir,  Inrau's possible intervention etc.  That doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Re; Gilgaol.  Remember the gods experience time differently.  Preserving Cnaiur at that point may be important for some later objective that is important to Gilgoal.  Perhaps ensuring certain important characters fall in battle due to Cnaiur's latter presence/influence, or something else - who knows what the gods want?  It's only speculation. 
But I do agree with locke that that scene is positively dripping with portentiousness.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 03:56:46 pm »
I agree that it is possible, even likely, that there is some intervention. I just feel like some of the speculation is more of seeing what you want, rather than seeing what is there. Too much meaning gleaned from ambiguity. I still say that too much is being attributed to the gods. I could be wrong, of course, but it feels wrong somehow to ignore simple change and happenstance.

I also think that, at this point, the Gods may not be fully awakened to the plight of Kellhus and followers. To the plight of the diminished consult and their wars. I think that we see more gods in TE/WLW because the gods are paying more attention, watching more closely. They may experience time differently, buy everyone procrastinates. Maybe in TE/WLW crisis is close and Gods are getting desperate. They are awakened to the changing times, even they they perhaps always knew it was going to be there.

Or maybe they have always been more active at that time. Maybe they start their interaction farther in the future, and iterativly solve for their desired outcome based on how that intervention changed whatever final future there is. Therefore, they sequentially change the timeline from the front to the back. I don't know if that made any sense :P.

This is hard to me to explain, but the gods exists outside of time, but they are essentially just on their own timeline. So their actions occur outside of Earwa time, but their actions still happen in some kind of sequential order... So then 'when' becomes important, though 'when', is difficult to say since in  Earwa-time-space.


Whatever, that was a clusterfuck of thoughts. My basic point remains the same. Some stuff happening here may be gods, but not all/most of it.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Crtha

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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2013, 04:46:43 am »
Of course.  Speculation is highly subjective.  But it does hang from ambiguity that the author injects (intentionally or otherwise). 
I'm only shooting of my thoughts because I agree with locke that this seems like an intentionally ambiguous easter egg. 
The kind of thing that is intended to be interesting after reading later material only because it perhaps 'excuses' the revelations that come after.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 02:59:04 pm »
So, not sure where else to put this.  I don't think it requires a new thread, so this one seemed like the closest fit that I could find.

Regarding Cnaiur and possible Outside influence:  we have at least one description of Cnaiur stabbing holes into the ground and, let's say, copulating with it.  Any chance this is somehow utilized by Yatwer?  In AE we have
(click to show/hide)

Seems like it could be a thing, although probably Cnaiur was unaware of the rite which exists in the Yatwerian cult.  And since he was just a raving maniac, and did not observe any religious rite we are aware of beforehand, it's probably nothing.  But still, could be...?
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MrGanondorf

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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2014, 03:46:58 pm »
Wow!  That is really...Wow!  Cnaiur descending into the Earth a precursor to what happens in TTT:

(click to show/hide)

Cnaiur is "of the land" -- mother earth?  If there is

(click to show/hide)

that may explain something about why the Scylvendi sided with the No-God?

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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2014, 12:04:32 pm »
Thanks for being subforum-conscious :).
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EkyannusIII

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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2014, 11:32:04 pm »

(click to show/hide)

that may explain something about why the Scylvendi sided with the No-God?

I can't see a fertility goddess siding with the monsters who caused the Years of the Crib.  She has nothing to gain from a closed World and the Consult's practices of war are abhorrent to everything Yatwer embodies.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

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if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2014, 11:33:07 pm »
So, not sure where else to put this.  I don't think it requires a new thread, so this one seemed like the closest fit that I could find.

Regarding Cnaiur and possible Outside influence:  we have at least one description of Cnaiur stabbing holes into the ground and, let's say, copulating with it.  Any chance this is somehow utilized by Yatwer?  In AE we have
(click to show/hide)

Seems like it could be a thing, although probably Cnaiur was unaware of the rite which exists in the Yatwerian cult.  And since he was just a raving maniac, and did not observe any religious rite we are aware of beforehand, it's probably nothing.  But still, could be...?

That is incredibly disgusting and very much like Bakker, I don't think he intended it but if he was reading this forum he would probably envy you for thinking of it. Good job, +1.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Madness

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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2014, 07:17:07 pm »
Lmao...

So, not sure where else to put this.  I don't think it requires a new thread, so this one seemed like the closest fit that I could find.

Regarding Cnaiur and possible Outside influence:  we have at least one description of Cnaiur stabbing holes into the ground and, let's say, copulating with it.  Any chance this is somehow utilized by Yatwer?  In AE we have
(click to show/hide)

Seems like it could be a thing, although probably Cnaiur was unaware of the rite which exists in the Yatwerian cult.  And since he was just a raving maniac, and did not observe any religious rite we are aware of beforehand, it's probably nothing.  But still, could be...?

That is incredibly disgusting and very much like Bakker, I don't think he intended it but if he was reading this forum he would probably envy you for thinking of it. Good job, +1.

Hate to say it but I know sologdin had already written this over at Westeros many moons ago :P. Two isolated instances of conception ;).
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EkyannusIII

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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2014, 03:02:17 pm »
Lmao...

So, not sure where else to put this.  I don't think it requires a new thread, so this one seemed like the closest fit that I could find.

Regarding Cnaiur and possible Outside influence:  we have at least one description of Cnaiur stabbing holes into the ground and, let's say, copulating with it.  Any chance this is somehow utilized by Yatwer?  In AE we have
(click to show/hide)

Seems like it could be a thing, although probably Cnaiur was unaware of the rite which exists in the Yatwerian cult.  And since he was just a raving maniac, and did not observe any religious rite we are aware of beforehand, it's probably nothing.  But still, could be...?

That is incredibly disgusting and very much like Bakker, I don't think he intended it but if he was reading this forum he would probably envy you for thinking of it. Good job, +1.

Hate to say it but I know sologdin had already written this over at Westeros many moons ago :P. Two isolated instances of conception ;).

Yeah like Newton and Leibniz discovering the calculus seperately.

Of course, if there is a paralell between Cnaiur humping the ground and Cnaiur humping Yatwer, then Cnaiur is like a Sranc because he too has used a knife to make a new hole.

Ick.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit