Philosophy in The Second Apocalypse

  • 47 Replies
  • 11544 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2013, 08:33:58 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Auriga
Ajencis is definitely Socrates, though.
Apart from being politically astute enough to stay on the right side of the powerful, you mean? ;)

Quote
The Cishaurim ... Fittingly, they don't have the Mark because they're all about emotions rather than cold hard logic
Ajencis explained pretty succinctly why Cish sorcery has no Mark right there in tDtCB, long before we (or he, for that matter) ever saw a Cish: "no passion is more true than another".

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 08:34:08 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I remember reading that post, lockesnow. Still don't understand much more of it now than I did then - well written, regardless, my ignorance comes from lack of associations.

Auriga, I think we're allowed to cherry-pick philosophic moments, events, or characters without paralleling history as well. Just in the interest of rounding out our mural - Ishual is the City - perfectly proportionate to the individual (see some interesting reflects in the Dark to Light in Thousand Thousand Halls vs. Ishual) - specifically (not the Dunyain are platonic, etc). As a philosophy, like you've done with the sorcerous schools, I'm not sure what I would pick for the Dunyain.

So Neitzsche and Zarathustra are like John the Baptist? I've heard this comparison allegorically before.

I'm not sure what to think of the Nonmen.

The Inchoroi & Nonmen, in my mind, both substitute for mythical (regardless of truth value - historically) Nephelim, Annunaki, Atlantis, Advanced Proto-Culture?

What about Memgowa? I did a little Asian philosophy but its hazy as all hell.

Duskweaver, Ajencis didn't have to deal with a Republic... You might say his circumstances mirrored Aristotle's earlier half of life. This is partially why I list is as Greek Philosopher X?

Also, wouldn't your post suggest that no passion is more true than another... so all are equally powerful?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 08:34:17 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
Also, wouldn't your post suggest that no passion is more true than another... so all are equally powerful?
I don't see how that follows, to be honest. :?

What I was getting at was this:

Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery works like language, like making a verbal claim such as "It's daytime now," or "Your head is on fire," or "Holy fuck! A dragon just flew overhead!" When such a verbal claim (whether written or spoken) obviously contradicts objective reality, the words remain (reality doesn't actually silence the claim) but the dissonance between the two is obvious. The Mark is God's cognitive dissonance, in a sense. Words can obviously not fit into an existing narrative.

Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery is like that passage in Josephus that supposedly talks about a historical Jesus. Many historians who've studied it reckon it's a later interpolation by a Christian apologist, because (amongst other reasons) the passage does not fit very well into the narrative flow of the surrounding text.

But, if Cish sorcery works through raw passion, without a verbal component, and if Ajencis is correct that "no passion is more true than another", then there can be no conflict between the passion of a Cish's magic and the God's own passions. There is no cognitive dissonance for the God to feel (and/or there's nothing notably unusual about experiencing several different emotions at once).

I can verbally convince you it's daylight... but only until you look out the window. But if I inject you with a drug to induce euphoria, you're going to feel happy no matter what.

I'm just a bit awed at Bakker for hiding such an important tidbit so early on in the series. In context, the Ajencis quote seems like it's just there to give Akka and Proyas something to hang their arguments about faith and reason on, but it's also a big clue to the metaphysics of sorcery.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 08:34:24 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol, a little further is all I ask, Duskweaver.

Concise. So then why - as I meant to communicate - would there be any distinction of power between users of the Psuhke or other passion-based sorceries, like the obvious hierarchy in other analogies (no pun intended)?

Also, I think we take huge misstep in assumption, if we posit that the sorcery is the co-option of God's anything...

Maybe sorcerous power is False as its the Passion and Voice of the Demiurge? Or perhaps, thaumaturgical abilities derives from the False God?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2013, 08:34:28 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
Lol, a little further is all I ask, Duskweaver.
There you go, always wanting to go deeper than I'm entirely comfortable with. As Shaeonanra said to Aurang. :P

Quote
Concise. So then why - as I meant to communicate - would there be any distinction of power between users of the Psuhke or other passion-based sorceries, like the obvious hierarchy in other analogies (no pun intended)?
Because truth and power are not the same thing? I see what you're getting at now, though. If passion is entirely subjective, how can one quantify it?

Quote
Also, I think we take huge misstep in assumption, if we posit that the sorcery is the co-option of God's anything...
I'm not sure which part of this you're saying we shouldn't assume. 'Co-option' has connotations I'm not entirely happy with. I don't think the God's consent or lack of it is relevant to the presence or absense of the Mark, so much as His ability to discern between (for want of better terms) his own thoughts and those of the sorcerer.

But I generally interpret the God of Gods in tSA as an as-yet-unawakened potential anyway (one who can awaken in one of two states: God or No-God - absolute certainty or total nihilism). So what I really mean when I talk about the God's ability to discern is the ability of the Few (who 'recall the God's proportions') to discern. They're the ones who actually 'see' the Mark.

It's much easier to remember if the precise wording of a passage in a book you first read ten years ago has changed in the new edition than to remember if the emotion you feel when reading it is the same as it was back then.

Quote
Maybe sorcerous power is False as its the Passion and Voice of the Demiurge? Or perhaps, thaumaturgical abilities derives from the False God?
Do we have any reason to think this is the case? Or to believe in a Demiurge separate from the God?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2013, 08:34:34 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Duskweaver
There you go, always wanting to go deeper than I'm entirely comfortable with. As Shaeonanra said to Aurang. :P

Triple entendre ;)?

Quote from: Duskweaver
Because truth and power are not the same thing? I see what you're getting at now, though. If passion is entirely subjective, how can one quantify it?

Well, I think the quote automatically qualifies this: all passions are reduced to the same as another... no passion can be anything more than any other passion. For a passion to be to be anything other than irreducible to all other passions it would have to be true.

Still a big Cishaurim hint, obviously, as you are highlighting.

Otherwise, I'm suggesting only that all explanations of sorcery by analogy of God are False. Simply Nerdaneling, I really see no reason to doubt it, especially with that corroboration by Bakker with the "Co-opting God's Song;" not my choice of word.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 08:34:39 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Hegel: World-historical individuals, World-Spirit...

Raizen

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • You have to be realistic about these things.
    • View Profile
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2014, 02:58:37 pm »
I couldn't quite find an appropriate place for this, but I happened upon it and thought it very interesting.  A thing called a "Desire Path" is remarkably similar to a physical manifestation of Bakker's Logos in the fact that it is in a sense the shortest path.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_path

It just seems like a similar idea, the shortest path developing as a product of mass social behavior.
Wisdom was naught but cunning made
grand, a weapon forged to win empty battles.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2014, 11:28:55 am »
Not a disagreement but isn't it something the Dunyain do exclusively consciously, though? Whereas the White-Luck Warrior does because that's what he does, he couldn't make a different choice.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Raizen

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • You have to be realistic about these things.
    • View Profile
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2014, 02:01:01 pm »
Now I'm just bouncing off of your reply, which really got my gears turning but I sort of see the Dunyain's dedication to the Logos as their form of "worship".  Granted, they don't (or at least I'm not aware of) worship in the traditional sense.  But the pursuit of the Logos seems to be kind of self contradictory in a way. 

They see men as puppets that adhere to cultural norms that have been dictated by their social norms and influences.  The Dunyain are looking for that self moving thought.  Doesn't the fact that the Dunyain still search for that thought fall into the category of a "culture" for them?  In a sense because they are born into the society of the Dunyain and pass their tests, they become part of the culture that searches for the escape of mass social thought.  Obviously they can influence lesser men to the extent we can a child, but the Dunyain society just seems like a more advanced form of social culture that merely has a singular goal instead of a sea of goals (like normal society).
 

Now in contrast, in the case of the White Luck Warrior he appears to be merely an extension of someone else's will.  He is merely there to carry out a purpose.  In a sense he seems to be the purest form of what the Dunyain look down upon.  A puppet with no self moving thought or desire that is his own.  He is absent from the mass desires of culture because he is the embodiment of a will of someone (or something) else.

I'm a bit rusty still in my Dunyain study, as I'm only only my second read through lol so I'm most likely just swinging for the fences with ridiculous speculation.  :P
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 02:06:14 pm by Raizen »
Wisdom was naught but cunning made
grand, a weapon forged to win empty battles.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2014, 10:03:04 pm »
They see men as puppets that adhere to cultural norms that have been dictated by their social norms and influences.  The Dunyain are looking for that self moving thought.  Doesn't the fact that the Dunyain still search for that thought fall into the category of a "culture" for them?  In a sense because they are born into the society of the Dunyain and pass their tests, they become part of the culture that searches for the escape of mass social thought.  Obviously they can influence lesser men to the extent we can a child, but the Dunyain society just seems like a more advanced form of social culture that merely has a singular goal instead of a sea of goals (like normal society).

I'm definitely missing your perception of the connection between desire paths and the Dunyain because I don't really understand how culture fits in here? But I'm interested, so please elaborate.

Now in contrast, in the case of the White Luck Warrior he appears to be merely an extension of someone else's will.  He is merely there to carry out a purpose.  In a sense he seems to be the purest form of what the Dunyain look down upon.  A puppet with no self moving thought or desire that is his own.  He is absent from the mass desires of culture because he is the embodiment of a will of someone (or something) else.

Again, I'm missed the connect between the 'Dunyain Culture' and Shortest Path. Though, to the bold, I absolutely agree and have tried explaining this to others before... the Warrior is the purest expression of the Shortest Path - to the Warrior's specific end and there is no indication that this is towards the Self-Moving Soul (in fact, you've kind of highlighted how the Warrior is the antithesis to a Self-Moving Soul).

I'm a bit rusty still in my Dunyain study, as I'm only only my second read through lol so I'm most likely just swinging for the fences with ridiculous speculation.  :P

Nah, I enjoy.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Raizen

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • You have to be realistic about these things.
    • View Profile
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2014, 12:16:11 pm »

I'm definitely missing your perception of the connection between desire paths and the Dunyain because I don't really understand how culture fits in here? But I'm interested, so please elaborate.


It's not a very strong connection, but I just thought it interesting how an example of a "shortest path" exists physically in our world as a creation of mass human subconscious thought.  The point I was making about the culture of the Dunyain was an unfortunate tangent that I went off on from your previous comment and really had nothing to do with my initial post lol.  Technically it should be two different posts.

That being said, the culture/philosophy of the Dunyain being contradictory is it's own point and is merely an observation on how if they continue to pursue something like the self moving thought, it will eventually shape their "culture" into a repetitious society that behaves in a set of rules.  I just found it interesting that the Dunyain almost have become what they hate, puppets to their desires.
Wisdom was naught but cunning made
grand, a weapon forged to win empty battles.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2014, 12:33:26 pm »

I'm definitely missing your perception of the connection between desire paths and the Dunyain because I don't really understand how culture fits in here? But I'm interested, so please elaborate.


It's not a very strong connection, but I just thought it interesting how an example of a "shortest path" exists physically in our world as a creation of mass human subconscious thought.  The point I was making about the culture of the Dunyain was an unfortunate tangent that I went off on from your previous comment and really had nothing to do with my initial post lol.  Technically it should be two different posts.

I don't know that it needs to be too different posts. But specifically to the "desire path/shortest path." Desire paths may be created unconsciously but there are pretty arguments suggest that it might naturally be close to the most efficient points and an expressive of our social organization (like ants). But the Dunyain are consciously nurturing that kind of skill-set in regards to human social interaction... So they try and establish the desire paths between social circumstances (considering other aspects of the mundane because of their methodologies). As a culture, this would center around the one goal cultural outcome you highlight above.

Just brainstorming.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Raizen

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • You have to be realistic about these things.
    • View Profile
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2014, 02:46:57 pm »
I guess my overall question now is:  At what point does their pursuit of the shortest path stop being a conscious effort and start becoming an unconscious habit?
Wisdom was naught but cunning made
grand, a weapon forged to win empty battles.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2014, 12:49:06 pm »
Hmm....

It's a multifaceted question. Kellhus and Moenghus the Elder's worldborn half-Dunyain children would get the best chance of their abilities unconsciously allowing them to walk the desire path socially among the worldborn. However, the issue is that desire paths, unconsciously, aren't as short as consciously finding the shortest path. Dunyain lack the time spent in the social milieu, as interaction in Ishual is likely a poor representation of general worldborn human interaction.

And then, of course, when a Dunyain is ignorant of certain facts, moving socially (moving along desire paths) can be made difficult by that ignorance (when Kellhus learns Scylvendi from the women of the Tribe, for instance).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer