Fane was right

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« on: May 14, 2013, 08:48:36 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
After three reads of the the entire series available in print, then reading all bakkers interviews, the reading thru three seas and second apocalypse forums....
I know feel confident saying there its but one God and Fane is His prophet. 

All others in Earwa are wrong and will burn (except perhaps some chosen females).

Agree or disagree, give your reasons and I will defend mine own.

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 08:48:42 pm »
Quote from: bbaztek
sounds legit to me


(seriously)

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 08:48:46 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I don't know why anyone else will burn, but that's probably because I wont go there mentally because it seems really awful.

I'd also suspect it's actually more complicated - that Fane perhaps is right, but that the god of gods he worships is pretty much asleep at the wheel. The helm is free for many to fight over it.

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 08:48:56 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
*shrug* I think it could be so, but I almost think it's more like Bakker to have the 'right' people be some group we've never met.  Just to fuck with the confirmation/selection bias of his readers.  Maybe the tribe that didn't come to earwa.

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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:01 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Right about what, exactly?
I can't recall anything about their version of the afterlife...
And the psukhe is just a different metaphysic that we know almost nothing about.

The only conclusion I draw is that they are right in that Inrithism is mere superstition, an approximation of whatever metaphysics rule the interations between the outside and it's agencies.
That doesn't mean that Fanim religious convictions are any better, in fact the differences in doctrine seem fairly slight.  Just your standard repudiation of other prophets, cults and idolatry.

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:05 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
Just want to clarify, I'm speaking in terms of this fictional universe around earwa.  Nothing of our world would fit there, even the philosophy is purely bakkerian. 

The Xian tribe who stayed in eanna is a wrench in the spokes. But they've not been spoken of in these books, so no point in me going there.
The kentyai were given the tusk, and the fanim repudiate it completely and for very good reason.
If moengus had been successful in his ttt, fanimry would be the ruling religion if the ordeal.  Shortest path and all that.  Just so happens that dunyain are sociopaths, so the Gods pure water cannot be wielded by them.

Quick edit for the post above...  The fanim are Religion, but a new man-God centric one.  Whereas inrithism is based upon writings created by pure evil rape aliens with specific goals in mind.

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:10 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Well, the bit about exterminating Non-men was the only thing added to the Tusk by the inchies according to that interview. 
The rest is all based on Angrasheal et al.

As far as we know, Fane's rejection of the Tusk and Inrithism may have more to do with the fact that he was an excomunicated priest of the Thousand Temples than his revelation. 
Which in itself might well have had more to do with his discovery of a 'new' type of sorcery whilst suffering blindness and privation (and subsquent rescue by the mystics of the Indara Kip'fana) than any genuine divine intervention or instruction.

But, as I said above, I think we really don't know enough about actual Fanim beliefs to compare them properly.

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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:15 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
Wasn't Fane expelled because of his new beliefs?  The inchies put in anti Nonmen and anti Sorcery prohibitions.  Pretty much controlling an entire religion and damning millions over time for false beliefs. 
Either way, we readers are not given Sejanus or Fane POV's.  However we do get to see demons, hell and the scary as hell Mother of Birth.  From the Goddess yatwer we get to inference that all the 100 gods are similar with their abilities and their realms (outside). 
We are told by the Dunyain that the 100 gods are just parts of a whole.  A nice way to please all sides, so shortest path at work again there.  I don't really believe we readers can trust a race of sociopaths.
The Fanim say the 100 gods are naught but greater demons, which The Goddess thru her disciple pretty much admits is true. 

So from all the hints we're given throughout all the readings and interviews, there are three ways to view the outside.  The understanding of the Fanim seem the most honest, as they base their beliefs upon the One God, but care not at all about the Shortest Path (so do not censor themselves fully speaking against the 100 demon gods).  But the further truth of their belief lies in their uplifting sorcery as a gift and make theirs into priests.  Remember akka ruminating on the hypocrisy of damning the only person who can speak with the God's Voice?
Quote
So the Inchoroi began giving them to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’ --- from Bakker in the same article.
just edited and added this quote.  The inchies gave the men of eanna the tusk.  The whole tusk is a gift from the inchies.

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:21 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Fane was a Shrial priest branded a heretic and banished to the desert where he went blind and experienced a series of revelations.  So the revelations came after the expulsion... 
he was probably banished for trying to stop or reveal corruption within the church. (speculation only)

Whatever the gods and demons are, there is a definate relationship between them and the things humans hold sacred and profane.  Yatwer is only scary if you oppose her - like most powerful entities.  Those who worhsip her do not do so out of fear.  Her rites and beliefs seem heavily based on ancient fertility goddess cults, hardly cthuloid demon worship.

Again, we only have the fact the Fanim disagree with the Inrithi.  How does this make them right? 
We are left with their sorcery, the psukhe, as proof.  Which is sorcery.  Useful only for destruction.  Usable by someone like Moenghus.  A tool for the passions of men.  Doesn't seem like thaumaturgy to me.  Seriously... what is uplifting about getting roasted by pretty flames, or mind-raped by self-righteous priest/mages?
Just doesn't leave a Mark, which is a distinctly different form of damnation than that suffered by those who are not of the Few.  And they still get cooked by Chorae.
I'm fairly sure that a psukhe user can be damned under the judging eye, just the same as any of the Few who never practice anagogic or gnostic sorcery...

You have the quote there about the Tusk - there is nothing to contradict what I said above.  One addition.  The rest is the standard humanistic religious rubbish about women as property and smiting your enemies etc etc.  Humans really don't need inchies to be evil, they just have to nudge them in whatever direction suits.  Note they also gave the Ketyai Chorae which aren't implicitly evil (unless you believe the nonmen, haha) and are subsequently used against the Consult hordes (another illustration of the Inchies not being very tacticly astute).

Overall, I'm not disagreeing that Inthrism is wrong and the cults are not merely more sophisticated versions of hell, but I don't see any reason to believe that the Fanim were any more correct.  We don't even know what their versions of damnation and exaltation were about.  Why shouldn't the Zeumi (Satyothi) be right instead?  They don't follow the Tusk.  What about the Scylvendi?  Or the Non-men?  Or none of the above.

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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:27 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Yeah I'd have to say that your reason behind Fanim being 'right' are pretty thin. There is only just barely enough vagaries in the text to make one believe that they are the one true faith, but there is no real proof. I'd agree that Inrithism is mostly made up, but who's to say that false prophesies can't become true ones? Maybe the whole world is being made into a topos via Inchies, thus making reality subjective to powerful will (like the outside).

Anyway, I can't imagine that Big Moe would have called his son all the way down from Ishual so he could lead an army into defeat. If his TTT was such that Inrithism would die out, surely his half-blood son was up for the task. He was the one that got everyone to go in the first place. Why give them a General of unparalleled intellect if the final goal was to have them all killed? Things aren't as cut and dry as you make it sound.

If I was forced to guess, I'd say that in the end everyone is going to some kind of hell and that there is salvation for no one. All religions, whether or not true/right/real, have been corrupted by some source or another (Inchoroi, Dunyain, or mundane influences), so everyone will burn. Or the Inchoroi, in a dramatic inversion, save the world by sealing it from hell and all the 144,000 sentient beings that are left live happily ever after.

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:32 pm »
Quote from: Ajokli
Behead those who insult Fane.

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:37 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I dunno why one would call it salvation or damnation, when it's powerful dudes with their mega ghost busters like storage containment unit that also tortures you.

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:42 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
The Witness of Fane

(see Kellhus' imprompta I in TWP, quoted in the Celmomian Prophecy thread of TDTCB forum for a full refresher on how the books use the term "Witness")

Witness implies seeing.

Fane went blind in the desert.

This means either:

A) The Witness of Fane is false, because one cannot Witness without first Seeing (though not all Seeing is Witness). The very title indicts him with his lies.

B) The Witness of Fane is true, because one can only Witness when Seeing is eliminated and one sees with the Third Sight. The very title promotes his revelations of a new sight.

C) None of the Above

A suggests also that Third Sight is a form of False Sight.  B suggests that normal sight is a form of false sight.  C suggests that all forms of sight are a false sight.

The Dunyain 'see' neither with first sight nor third sight.

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:48 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
If there is damnation in earwa, then there is obviously salvation.  We're told there are multiple ways to 'not go to hell' through POVs.  Thru one of the 100 gods we actually learn that they are just greater demons as the fanim do preach.  The fanim, sejanus, and kellus agree that there is a single one great god.
I don't understand the reasoning of mixing realities.  earwa is earwa, and that's all that it can be.

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:53 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Outside of the text, Bakker has suggested three options: Damnation, Oblivion, and Redemption.

Redemption = Salvation = Absolution in my opinion...

There is very limited evidence as to the Fanim's correctness in choices concerning metaphysics. However, we are pretty sure the Inrithi are wrong and the Fanim narrative seems to encompass the beliefs that have come before - leading us to believe they are the Righteous.

We've also been primed to believe that there is a right interpretation of Earwa.

I'll second those who've said Fanim or Unknown X - guaranteed to see some random shit that's only been mentioned or hinted at once, ever, explode in the narrative ;).