Fane was right

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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 08:49:58 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Damnation does not imply salvation. Labeling something as red does not imply that something exists which is blue.
The existence of one thing doesn't necessarily prove the existence of its opposite.

If it was a fact that reading this post will damn you to hell, that does not imply that there is some way to "undamn" yourself once your read it. You may say to yourself "well thats not fair, I was just reading! I shall repent and save my soul by never reading another post, or by asking forgiveness, or by preventing others from reading it". This sounds great to you, but its imaginary. The fact is, you would be damned and now you are shit out of luck. Fair? Probably not. But some things just are.

The people in Earwa become damned, this is likely true as we have some various proofs of this (ciphrang, for example, get to nom on their summoners souls). That does not mean that once damned that you can repent or be saved, we have no proof of salvation. All we have is some various blind people telling us there is a path to salvation.

Damnation is also relative. If the choices are "suffer for eternity" and "feel nothing for eternity", then nothing (or oblivion) seems a lot like salvation. On the other hand, if your choices are "rejoice for eternity" and against 'nothing for eternity', well then it seems that oblivion is some kind of damnation. In either case the oblivion is the same, but some the label is different. Oblivion might be heaven or hell or neither depending on the existence of all three.

It is likely that the reality of damnation made people believe that they could also be saved, but this may or may not have been an invention or rationalization to stay sane. What would be the point of suffering most of your life if there was no proverbial light at the end of the tunnel? Much better to at least feel like you are doing some good, saving your soul and whatnot, rather than living in a life of endless misery.

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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:03 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
It seems like the proposition here itself is flawed.  That belief is what causes damnation seems an erroneous assumption.  Belief informs action and judgement, but it seems that it is actions that damn.  Sorcerers are damned no matter their intent.  Enduring suffering is redemptive in and of itself - Serwe provides explicit proof of this. 
Now, if nationwide beliefs condone practices that cause individual damnation (perhaps an example might be slavery) then yes, whole nations can be damned. 
But no religon can provide a belief system that would mean every individual would be redeemed.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.

Just a personal opinion, but I'm pretty sure that every cultural edifice in Earwa is likely to include beliefs that can easily lead to damnation.

Secondly there is this assumption that Ciphrang feed on souls.  This doesn't tally with the evidence presented.  Damnation is eternal, the soul suffers forever, based on the actions and resultant judgement that have caused said damnation.  Ciphrang appear to 'feed' on negative emotions - suffering, remorse, guilt and the like - causing the souls they possess to experience unimaginable horrors for ever.  Critical point here is that angelic Ciphrang also exist.  So logic dictates that they 'feed' on positive emotions - love, contedeness etc, no?  And therefore the outside would contain dimensions where souls reside with the intent of provoking these emotions for eternity...
 
So why should there not be Ciphrang of all stripes, those who feed on alll kinds of emotional qualities that can be judged?  Perhaps the hundred Gods should be veiwed in this light?  Not your typical demons, but neither are they forces of niceness.  So many hells, why not a hundred different versions of heaven too? 

The other option - oblivion - is either about escaping judgement or the eternal after-life.

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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:09 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
Thanks madness for clarification of the three options for souls in earwa.

wilshire, I'm sticking to earwa in the discussion.

curethan, I don't remember anything other than the tusk and inchies(who made the tusk) damning all sorcerers. Chish sorcerers have no blighted mark of damnation, neither did the sorcerer from the false sun short story. 
About angelic ciphrang, I can only remember hearing about that here on the forums. Where was that stated?

Just as another quick statement, I really would rather just speak of damnation, oblivion, and salvation as they occur in earwa.  I don't want to get to much off topic, so another topic could created by y'all to speak of what you thought was started in philosophy class.

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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:15 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
The remark about angelic Ciphrang came from another Bakker interview iirc - I think it was with Pat's Fantasy Hotlist but I can't provide a link right now.

Don't confuse the Mark of Sorcery with the mark of damnation.  Inanimate objects can bear the Mark after sorcery is performed which kinda nullifies the idea that it is the same as the mark of damnation.
Mimara confirms they are seperate things multiple times in POV.  And Titirga bore the Mark, but it's quality was different.  ;)

The idea that sorcery causes damnation goes back well before the inchies even arrived amongst the five tribes, presumably because that's how it looks to those who can aprehend the onta.  The non-men seemed to think they could avoid damnation by 'hiding their voices' but the implication is that by not doing so, damnation becomes more or less inevitable as a result of using sorcery.  As you say though, there is no proof that sorcery in itself really does cause damnation, indeed quotes from Zaranthius in-text present arguements against it, but neither is the Mark a guarantee of damnation - that's something only the JE provides.

I'll just reprint the quote Madness was refering to here, because I think it's context is important.
Quote
there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies.
Connect that with the above extrapolations about sorcery and I think it seems likely that sorcery is one of the acts that attracts the interest of these agencies (the Nonman term for gods and demons).  The Daimos presents an explicit example where the act becomes a transaction.

Btw, I think it's quite explicit that the Tusk is engraved with Kunniat beliefs and stories with ONE ADDITION - the condemnation of nonmen.  It's funny, because I was speculating that the Inchies manipulated Inrithism to include the persecution of sorcerers and nonmen shortly before that interveiw came out, so I can see where you are coming from ;)

I think an interesting question to arise from this discussion is whether Akka believes he is damned because of Inrithi tradition or whether it is related to his knowledge of metaphysics.
Khellus briefly convinces him that he can be redeemed in TTT but he's back to being convinced he is damned in AE.

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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:22 pm »
Quote from: Madness
At this point, it's mute whether Bakker was telling the truth or not, Curethan. He's sufficiently derailed other discussions, of alternate descriptions. There's nothing stopping him from giving us evidence that the Inchoroi are the only ones who authorialised sorcery as generally damned, that also being a False additive, in the future.

Especially, as he's specifically primed us to some purpose.

We know Nonmen aren't universally Damned but we also know that every religion is a response to a partially false document - excepting, of course, that we don't know anything about the Laws of the Fanimry or how they treat similar issues.

In TUC, this is going to become a contemporary discussion - Serwa seems to believe Zaudunyani Inrithism and seems to have prejudice based on that, as of Wilshire's Ch. 3 Excerpt.

The only thing that will save her is her respect for the Quya.

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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:29 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to be a corrective dick Madness, but I believe the term is 'moot'.

Furthermore I believe that if you are going to use a quote to support an arguement, then you need to pay attention to the context. 
You can't just assert the half the statement is true but the other half is a lie and expect your arguement to be accepted.

I'm not even arguing that the rest of the Tusk is correct.  For example, why would whores be damned when they pretty much have a patron Diety?
Indeed, my arguement hinges on asking why Fanimry should be correct. 
The counter is that the Inchies interfered with the Tusk and that Cishurim don't bear a mark.  So what?
The Mark doesn't equate to damnation, and most of the Tusk is based on pre-existing Tribal mythos.
Honest superstition doesn't seem any better or worse than contrived beliefs aimed at exterminating Nonmen, so why should Fanimry be the truth?

I'm saying that probably nobody is universally damned (except - maybe - Sorcerers) and that while cultural and religious beliefs have a strong bearing on the path to and form of damnation that redemption is an equally mutable state. 
I reject that all Fanim go to heaven and everyone else is damned.  I don't think anyone has it right, because it's metaphysics -not science- it is dependant on perspectives.

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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:35 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Well to quiet your worrying friend, apply all the logic from my last comment and apply it to Earwa. In stead of "you" replace with  "a subject of earwa". There we go, all fixed up, just thought that bit was obvious.

At any rate, the point remains the same. Fane wasn't more or less right than anyone else, just another prophet from the desert (which is where they all come from anyways).



I do think that most of what we know about damnation is wrong. Like curethan said, the mark is no indication of damnation and the Cish not having the mark is just a happy coincidence. I do disagree a bit though, as I feel like there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to be saved. Few, if any at all, actually know what category they fall into.

 The Inchoroi with their inverse fire know only that being damned is quite unpleasant (thus the whole sealing the world thing).
 The Cish can do some scrying of the outside as well, and they say they know of the hundred, but this doesn't prove any actual knowledge of damnation but rather just shows they know a bit more about the gods than others.
 The Inrithi don't know much of anything, though they are sure of their righteousness, but so is everyone else so who cares.
 The Tusk says sorcerers are damned, but again so what? Its an artifact given to a group of superstitious natives for the purpose of getting rid of the Nonmen. Its entirely possible that they already believed that sorcerers where damned.

 Also consider that the oldest tribal leaders (way before the tusk) where Shaman, meaning religious leaders and wielders of magic. This leads me to believe that someone or some group got upset that they couldn't see the onta and could therefore not obtain the highest rank in their tribe, so a few years of subterfuge and bam- suddenly there are a bunch of Shaman out of jobs because guess what? Turns out that they are devils and are going to hell.

Maybe it could be that there will be some kind of "right" and "wrong" reviled, and whole nations will end up damned for believe the wrong thing. For example if the Ordeal is false, all the participants will be damned.

Or maybe the belief that one is, or should be, damned, is the driving force of actually becoming damned. Self fulfilling prophesy of sorts.

So far the JE hasn't showed us much proof of whole nations being damned, as Mimara has spent her life in a brothel and wandering through the woods with a group of murderers. She will probably provide us with some kind of evidence later on about who is or isn't damned, but she won't be able to fully understand it and it will again be left to us to debate what it was she saw.

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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:40 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
......I do think that most of what we know about damnation is wrong. Like curethan said, the mark is no indication of damnation and the Cish not having the mark is just a happy coincidence.  ......
I don't remember any coincidences in the entire series.  To be fully honest, I don't believe many authors allow wasteful coincidence into their books very often. 
But onto the point of the actual fictional piece.  It is not coincidence that the Cish are sorcercerors, priests, they believe in the solitary god, and they leave NO MARK.
On the mark showing damnation, the greater the blight of a sorcerors mark, the more damned they are.  This is stated clearly dozens of times throughout the series.


....The Cish can do some scrying of the outside as well, and they say they know of the hundred, but this doesn't prove any actual knowledge of damnation but rather just shows they know a bit more about the gods than others.....
We have one of the hundred admitting the 100 gods are just greater demons using souls to their own desires.  They consider soul slavery for eternity to a greater demon damnation.  I do too.
 ....
 The Tusk says sorcerers are damned, but again so what? Its an artifact given to a group of superstitious natives for the purpose of getting rid of the Nonmen. Its entirely possible that they already believed that sorcerers where damned.....
Their beliefs were changed by outside sources (inchies/rapeyliens.)

 Also consider that the oldest tribal leaders (way before the tusk) where Shaman, meaning religious leaders and wielders of magic. This leads me to believe that someone or some group got upset that they couldn't see the onta and could therefore not obtain the highest rank in their tribe, so a few years of subterfuge and bam- suddenly there are a bunch of Shaman out of jobs because guess what? Turns out that they are devils and are going to hell.
This statement here disagrees with that above, but it has been laid out that the tusk was given to the tribes of men for specifically two reasons.  Men did not believe thus before the Tusk.

Maybe it could be that there will be some kind of "right" and "wrong" reviled, and whole nations will end up damned for believe the wrong thing. For example if the Ordeal is false, all the participants will be damned.
- There is no nationwide shared soul.  Souls are individualy assessed.

Or maybe the belief that one is, or should be, damned, is the driving force of actually becoming damned. Self fulfilling prophesy of sorts.

So far the JE hasn't showed us much proof of whole nations being damned, as Mimara has spent her life in a brothel and wandering through the woods with a group of murderers. She will probably provide us with some kind of evidence later on about who is or isn't damned, but she won't be able to fully understand it and it will again be left to us to debate what it was she saw.
Yes, souls are not shared.

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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:46 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
1) Just because you don't recall something doesn't mean it wasn't there.
2) The text is prone to error and the characters are fallible, even the glossary in the back has misleading information. Anything said by anyone may or my not be true. Because of this, the reader must decide for him/herself what is true and what is false. Anything that seems obvious is probably just a very narrow reading of the text which allows the reader to simplify things that are otherwise too complicated for them to consider.
3) It is stated at least once that everyone shares a soul. Remember the whole thing regarding people's souls being oceans that go inward.
4) Heaven is a kind of soul slavery, but it isn't normally considered damnation. It isn't who owns your soul, but rather what they do with it.
5) The Tusk didn't change any beliefs other than the Nonman thing, nor would that address the idea that their beliefs about sorcery are wrong to begin with.

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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:51 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
1) Just because you don't recall something doesn't mean it wasn't there.
I'm sorry, I was being sarcastic.  More clearly then, there is no such thing as coincidence.  Especially in a book.

2) The text is prone to error and the characters are fallible, even the glossary in the back has misleading information. Anything said by anyone may or my not be true. Because of this, the reader must decide for him/herself what is true and what is false. Anything that seems obvious is probably just a very narrow reading of the text which allows the reader to simplify things that are otherwise too complicated for them to consider.
Reading a fictional series hardly calls for advanced critical thinking skills.  But I guess some people believe themselves superior for alot of funny reasons out there.  I guess it helps their personal self esteem. 
And for complicated, I haven't seen anybody out there come up with this topic excepting myself.  I had not heard anybody think outside the box that possibly this entire story will conclude with the first religion being destroyed in the series ends with them being RIGHT.  I thought my reasoning was more in line with bakkers writing thus far.


3) It is stated at least once that everyone shares a soul. Remember the whole thing regarding people's souls being oceans that go inward.
A dunyain says this.  That everyone is part of THE GODS soul.  Souls are individual, and his own evidence gives this reason.  But hey, you said nothing in a book can be trusted in the book we're talking about (weird, but it's not my logic)

4) Heaven is a kind of soul slavery, but it isn't normally considered damnation. It isn't who owns your soul, but rather what they do with it.
I was more stating what the Cish say of the 100, and the 100 concede as true.  If a demon controls you, then you probably aren't in heaven is my reasoning.

5) The Tusk didn't change any beliefs other than the Nonman thing, nor would that address the idea that their beliefs about sorcery are wrong to begin with.
So which is it to you?  Are all sorcerors damned or not?  But then here we go again circle logic style....don't trust anything in the book we're reading.

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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 08:50:56 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
......I do think that most of what we know about damnation is wrong. Like curethan said, the mark is no indication of damnation and the Cish not having the mark is just a happy coincidence.  ......
I don't remember any coincidences in the entire series.  To be fully honest, I don't believe many authors allow wasteful coincidence into their books very often. 
But onto the point of the actual fictional piece.  It is not coincidence that the Cish are sorcercerors, priests, they believe in the solitary god, and they leave NO MARK.
On the mark showing damnation, the greater the blight of a sorcerors mark, the more damned they are.  This is stated clearly dozens of times throughout the series.
No, it isn't.  It is intentionaly ambiguous.
Again. Start from your assumption.
Why do inamanimate objects bear the mark?  Are they damned?  Why can only sorcerers see the Mark?  Why do chorae destroy Cish?  Why does damnation look different to the Judging eye?

Surely the 'coincidence' that Cish magic is undetectable to gnostic/anagogic sorcery is important to the plot of PON in more fundamental ways...  i.e. the Saik and SS assuming the Cish are responsible for Skin Spies, the Cish asuming the SS were responsible for the Skin Spies, the way the Cish assasinated the SS grandmaster, the fact that both sides of the religious conflict have sorcerers etc etc etc.

Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
....The Cish can do some scrying of the outside as well, and they say they know of the hundred, but this doesn't prove any actual knowledge of damnation but rather just shows they know a bit more about the gods than others.....
We have one of the hundred admitting the 100 gods are just greater demons using souls to their own desires.  They consider soul slavery for eternity to a greater demon damnation.  I do too.
And here is your unreliability. In the same conversation, Psatma (who is, btw, not Yatwer) asserts that Yatwer is the Goddess several times.  She also names Khellus as Demon and the Psukhe as deviltry.  Just because you latch onto the part where she says
Quote
"Demon?  Yes! I worship a demon! - if it pleases you to call her such."
  doesn't make it black and white.
I see it as confirmation that the Hundred are similar to Demons, as non-men are similar to sranc.  Again, recall that there are angelic Ciphrang.  How do these fit in your vision of black and white?
Quote
"The fat shall be eaten, of course.  But the high holy?  The faithful?  They shall be celebrated!"
Implies that a different fate awaits the faithful.  Something that they would call... redemption.
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
....
 The Tusk says sorcerers are damned, but again so what? Its an artifact given to a group of superstitious natives for the purpose of getting rid of the Nonmen. Its entirely possible that they already believed that sorcerers where damned.....
Their beliefs were changed by outside sources (inchies/rapeyliens.)

 Also consider that the oldest tribal leaders (way before the tusk) where Shaman, meaning religious leaders and wielders of magic. This leads me to believe that someone or some group got upset that they couldn't see the onta and could therefore not obtain the highest rank in their tribe, so a few years of subterfuge and bam- suddenly there are a bunch of Shaman out of jobs because guess what? Turns out that they are devils and are going to hell.
This statement here disagrees with that above, but it has been laid out that the tusk was given to the tribes of men for specifically two reasons.  Men did not believe thus before the Tusk.
Specifically, one reason.  That is what you quoted earlier clearly states.  Stop adding sorcery just because you want it to be so.

Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
Maybe it could be that there will be some kind of "right" and "wrong" reviled, and whole nations will end up damned for believe the wrong thing. For example if the Ordeal is false, all the participants will be damned.
- There is no nationwide shared soul.  Souls are individualy assessed.

Or maybe the belief that one is, or should be, damned, is the driving force of actually becoming damned. Self fulfilling prophesy of sorts.

So far the JE hasn't showed us much proof of whole nations being damned, as Mimara has spent her life in a brothel and wandering through the woods with a group of murderers. She will probably provide us with some kind of evidence later on about who is or isn't damned, but she won't be able to fully understand it and it will again be left to us to debate what it was she saw.
Yes, souls are not shared.

History and culture determines individual action.  Major theme and not that hard to grasp guys...  c'mon.

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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 08:51:02 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to be a corrective dick Madness, but I believe the term is 'moot'.

Furthermore I believe that if you are going to use a quote to support an arguement, then you need to pay attention to the context. 
You can't just assert the half the statement is true but the other half is a lie and expect your arguement to be accepted.

No worries, of course, Curethan. I appreciate the correction. By the way, I'm confused. I read through my last couple posts and I'm not sure I offered any argument except in trying to make the statement that Bakker could retract, retcon, or otherwise expand on the Nonmen are False being the only addition - he dropped that bomb (confirmed suspicions) to prime us in some way for TUC, which we know from Wilshire's summary, includes meditations on treating Nonmen as Damned simply based on the Tusk. There is simply nothing to stop Bakker from withholding the truth of other "additions," at this time.

Could you quote me otherwise so I can address my fallacies :)?

Also, mediation/meditation moment? Everyone take some deep breaths? Check your biased heuristics ;)?

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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 08:51:08 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I think DOTG is one of the easiest books to promote.

There's an interesting bit latter in the book I'll spoiler because it aught to be experienced raw
(click to show/hide)

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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 08:51:14 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
Could you quote me otherwise so I can address my fallacies :)?

I was refering to SATZ's arguement there.  ;)

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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 08:51:35 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Callan, did you mean to post the above in the Disseminating Bakker thread?

Curethan, the referrals tripped me up. Just checking :).