TSA related art and stuff.

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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 08:57:51 pm »
Quote from: Camlost
@jmcdonagh I really like the disheveled landscape, it bespeaks of ancient desolation to me. I'd be interested to see your interpretation of Kellhus bound to the Circumfix

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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 08:57:57 pm »
Quote from: Mats
Quote from: Callan S.
Jorge, ACM's point is to enforce absolutely zero compromise with other groups of humans over certain issues. I guess in regards to so called female 'circumcision' I'm a no compromise person as well, I'll have to admit. But in terms of this cover - it's hit a no compromise point already? Really? Akka is far more naked...no, still hit a point of no compromise?

It's not just about the clothes-to-skin ratio, but also character pose, placement, action, etc. It's a shit cover by every relevant measure.

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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:02 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: jmcdonagh
Here is some illustartions I made:-

http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#5

http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#6

I like your style and your illustrations. Not quite how I envisioned the Ark though. Thought it was pitched against the sky rather than perpendicular to the ground? Hit at a slightly oblique angle I believe.

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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:07 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Mats
Quote from: Callan S.
Jorge, ACM's point is to enforce absolutely zero compromise with other groups of humans over certain issues. I guess in regards to so called female 'circumcision' I'm a no compromise person as well, I'll have to admit. But in terms of this cover - it's hit a no compromise point already? Really? Akka is far more naked...no, still hit a point of no compromise?

It's not just about the clothes-to-skin ratio, but also character pose, placement, action, etc. It's a shit cover by every relevant measure.
I'd get if you wanted to haggle, so to speak - to push for the end of the bargain you find preferable and talk about elements you'd have added or subtracted as a proposal, with some amount of middle ground found in the end.

But it seems you've hit a no compromise zone?

And to me, that seems so soon.

I mean, that scene basically did happen in the story. How did you imagine it when you read it? Or did you actually imagine it roughly the same way, but you wouldn't put what you imagine on the front cover of a book?

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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:12 pm »
Quote from: Mats
Quote from: Callan S.
I'd get if you wanted to haggle, so to speak - to push for the end of the bargain you find preferable and talk about elements you'd have added or subtracted as a proposal, with some amount of middle ground found in the end.

But it seems you've hit a no compromise zone?

And to me, that seems so soon.

I mean, that scene basically did happen in the story. How did you imagine it when you read it? Or did you actually imagine it roughly the same way, but you wouldn't put what you imagine on the front cover of a book?

During that scene, did I imagine a white Akka rising up towards schoolmen, while Esme cowered pitifully in the back helplessly, making sure to let just a small titillating amount of leg, waist and side-boob dazzle the viewer? Fuck no.

And "so soon?" Really? Are we required to go through a mandatory back-and-forth, riposte and parry, haggling and arguing, just to arrive at the conclusion that that particular cover is cynically designed to appeal to those looking for a juvenile white male empowerment fantasy, like those that has left the entire fantasy genre so utterly wretched? Honestly, isn't there better things to worry about?

I get that most Bakker-fans are somewhat skittish whenever feminism is brought up these days, but let's not impose relativism on every instance, k? Sometimes, a spade is just a spade and sexist bullshit is just sexist bullshit.

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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:19 pm »
Quote from: Bastard of Godsgrace
Quote from: Mats
During that scene, did I imagine a white Akka rising up towards schoolmen, while Esme cowered pitifully in the back helplessly, making sure to let just a small titillating amount of leg, waist and side-boob dazzle the viewer? Fuck no.

And "so soon?" Really? Are we required to go through a mandatory back-and-forth, riposte and parry, haggling and arguing, just to arrive at the conclusion that that particular cover is cynically designed to appeal to those looking for a juvenile white male empowerment fantasy, like those that has left the entire fantasy genre so utterly wretched? Honestly, isn't there better things to worry about?

I get that most Bakker-fans are somewhat skittish whenever feminism is brought up these days, but let's not impose relativism on every instance, k? Sometimes, a spade is just a spade and sexist bullshit is just sexist bullshit.


I am not saying those aren't crappy covers (they are), but in the context of the culture they were created in all those concerns would be quite alien (and I know what I am saying, since I am an Eastern European myself.)

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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:26 pm »
Quote from: Mats
That's fair enough. I suppose my concern is mainly that if Bakker-fans as a community can't even agree that something as overtly juvenile and sexist as that cover is, in fact, juvenile and sexist, then how can we properly engage with the alleged sexism in Bakker's works?

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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:31 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
Quote
cowered pitifully in the back helplessly, making sure to let just a small titillating amount of leg, waist and side-boob dazzle the viewer?

This is how I picture everyone on this forum actually. 'Specially the side boob dazzle. ;-)

In all seriousness, I think what Callan is saying is that on some level a good swath of the global population wants to have sex with the opposite gender. The challenge then becomes sorting out the sexual from the sexist.

From there, you run into the concept of moral, I know it when I see it, objection. This is where ACM and those who agree with her are on the other side of a chasm. Though I do think there's some allowance for debate on certain books like those of Le Guin.

For me, I'd say the cover is a silly one, as well as a sexist one. It emphasizes Akka's power (while managing to ignore his girth) and the helplessness of Esmi. Yet the scene does actually happen, and isn't overtly sexist in and of itself. I'd say the problem is more in the conflation of titillation and helplessness.

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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:36 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Well, perhaps we could photoshop venus from the birth of venus in to replace Esme? Hae, Venus! Boob cover fail! Swooshy ride, though!

But to me, it makes me think how these fictional worlds really are incredibly intentful. The intent for this bit is this, the intent for that bit is that. You can have a doco where the natives breasts are out because blah, that's just how it is, but get to fiction and bam, this side bit of bosom is there for THIS reason. Nothing in fiction is just, blah, there. It all has some intentful intent behind it. More often than not, it's exactly the intent the viewer sees, consistantly. I presume that's what it's like in Earwa's outside. The distance between desire and fact is shortened - even if the desire is to see something as dread. And in such a case, it makes it dread. The poisoning eye? Or is that a Finnish metal band?

It's not like I'm open minded on everything - so called female 'circumcision' I'm damn close minded on (oh fucking bullshit it's circumcision!!!!! (even male circumcision is just fucking mutilation, but atleast it's relatively cosmetic mutilation)). Now these covers might be pulp, going out to alot of untidy places. But I have a hard time just calling them sexist without calling the birth of Venus sexist. So what if the birth of Venus is kept in a hoity toity art gallery? If someone can explicity state the rules they use to differentiate, fair enough. Otherwise I think it's just being in the grip of a stampeding elephant. EVEN then, if you choose to have your actions dictated by any strong emotion that comes through, then say your choice. Own it.

So, what are people using? For anyone not stating explicit rules, I'm going to assume people are just acting on whatever strong emotion that comes in. And I'm not even knocking that if a person chooses that. What I would knock though, is where the person hasn't chosen, and instead the emotions are choosing the person. If you can't describe explicit rules and you also can't say you choose to let any emotion coming through dictate your actions, then I'm just not talking to who's in charge on the matter. So explicit rules? Or choosing to cede actions to gut feeling? Again, not knocking the latter as a choice.

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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:42 pm »
Quote from: Mats
Fine. Rules:

-Don't depict women in stupid poses that emphasizes their sexuality to the detriment of everything else (fuck you, comics).

-Don't angle the shot in ways that blatantly pander to the male gaze.

-Don't white-wash. Ever.

-Don't excuse any of this shit by appealing to moral relativity just because you happen to like the cover in question.

-If you listen to a Finnish metal band, and it's not Reverend Bizarre, enjoy dying alone.

Oh, and if you ever shoot a docu and the cover of said docu is a tantalizing shot of some aboriginal leathery side-boob-action, I'd hazard most people would find that quite disturbing! :p

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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:49 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
Yes. Thank you.

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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:58 pm »
Quote from: Francis Buck
Quote from: jmcdonagh
Here is some illustartions I made:-

http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#5

http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#6

Awesome stuff dude. I've always wanted to see depictions of Aurang, the Sranc, Bashrag...*hint* *hint*  ;)

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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 08:59:02 pm »
Quote from: Ajokli
Quote from: jmcdonagh
Here is some illustartions I made:-

http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#5

http://jackmcdonagh.daportfolio.com/gallery/548457#6

I still love it being in black and white.

Re: Silly book covers, this site has given me a head-scratching moments

http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/

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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 08:59:07 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Mats
Fine. Rules:

-Don't depict women in stupid poses that emphasizes their sexuality to the detriment of everything else (fuck you, comics).

-Don't angle the shot in ways that blatantly pander to the male gaze.
After years of studying RPG designs on another forum where every five minutes people would use subjective words as if they were objective enough to base a rule around, I aught to have seen this coming. Really, fail on me.

'Stupid', 'Emphasize', 'Detriment', 'Pander'

These words hinge on a judge. Ask a thousand people to judge if these words apply, you wont get the SAME answer. Ask a thousand people to use a ruler to measure a piece of string, you will get the SAME answer (unless people are fucking around).

Do you use these sorts of words because you have chosen to be fine with a judge? And much like Earwa, what happens when the judge's justice doesn't actually go your way?

These aren't rules, until the terms would produce the ONE answer from a survey of a thousand people or so. So I'm not speaking to who's in charge.

Quote
-Don't white-wash. Ever.
The depiction seems to just be an erronious one. It's a mistake. I'm not sure this rule applies for the reason you think, but indeed an error did occur and the wash was white, so I can atleast relate to this somewhat.

Quote
-Don't excuse any of this shit by appealing to moral relativity just because you happen to like the cover in question.
Don't try cultural imperialism and think it's fine for you to take that position. In no way are you interested in me taking up a cultural dictatorial stance over you, me telling you what you are to feel, from now on, forever - what makes you think you're somehow more worthy of a cultural dictators position than I?

If you want some sort of atleast semi shared cultural standard on these matters (which I can understand and relate to - pretty much everything rests on shared or atleast semi shared cultural standards), attempting it through the shock jock shame down method isn't going to make that happen. Or atleast by my estimate it isn't.

Did someone teach you this method works in some way? What was their name?

Quote
Oh, and if you ever shoot a docu and the cover of said docu is a tantalizing shot of some aboriginal leathery side-boob-action, I'd hazard most people would find that quite disturbing! :p
See, to me I read this and think "And so people think they are pro feminism, then they ascribe some sort of derogitory quality to womens anatomy...bizaare! What about women who have gone through masectomies - how about a derogitory word for them and their 'leathery' scars as well?"

To me it seems obvious we both have excentricities of value, and thus even more reason to try and work something out, rather than one side just dictating that it will be treated as X.

In the end I'd be good with a reverse of the genders - woman going off, magic blaring from her palms (indeed, with her top up done up even, rather than how Akka has his chest bared), man barely covered and reclined (side of buttock revealed - I've heard some women like mens buttocks!). I'm thinking the man reaching out, dread expression of concern across his face rather than mouth covering, cause that mouth covering doesn't seem to fit. But maybe a tear running from his eye as well, simply because that really does jar against what seems to fit. But that's sexist too, because the womans going out to do all the work while the guy lays around doin' nuffin and a weeper... :p

In the end, I'm pretty sure the birth of venus could be exploited by companies for profit. That doesn't make me hate the art, though, nor want it to never exist/for it to burn. I like the art. The way the companies implement it though, I may not like (I think someone gave a link to a 'wall of vaginas' artwork in another thread - that could be exploited by companies as well, me thinks).

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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 08:59:15 pm »
Quote from: Madness
One thought, Callan.

Those suggestions about balance and letting men be objectified instead of women for awhile are still sexist.