DŻnyain society

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What Came Before

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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 10:27:36 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 Auriga, excepting "a cigar is just a cigar." I think not :P! All cigars in my world follow the patented acme programming and blow the fuck up before I finish them ;).

Quote from: lockesnow
Going back to the scene at the shrine, anyone think there is another test in there that Kellhus knew nothing about because he didn't pass it/wasn't attuned to it? This may be part of the test where they slot candidates into learning tracks, and Kellhus got tracked into the warrior track.

I like the thought and feeds into my thought that if Ishual is analogous to the City from the Republic than the Dunyain we've seen are the Guardian caste.

EDIT: I made some mention to Moenghus' purpose in the Almanac thread when Cnaiur is recalling Moenghus' time with the Utemot; Meonghus doesn't seem at all like the leaf blown in the wind, he seems to have direction.

What Came Before

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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 10:27:43 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: lockesnow
Kellhus misses much when he never expects to see, doesn't he?

Candles are the worst sort of light, they are never stable and they'd never provide a light like that.
You forget that Dunyain candles are badass candles! They are steel candles to your bronze candles!

No, I don't think they'd strip the sorcerous runes from the place, but just hope no one notices the light in the unmasking room.

What Came Before

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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 10:27:49 pm »
Quote from: Madness
In rereading it, I instantly thought Diurnal, except it's multiple points of light, but then I thought Seswatha in the Dreaming Coffers.

Madness

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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2013, 01:10:00 pm »
More thoughts on candles! Maybe the Dunyain couldn't actually affect the destruction of all sorceries in Ishual - they're a fixture; the light simply turn on when someone enters the rooms because Ishual was built that way.

But seriously:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004
I'd like to go into the question of the Dunyain and gender, but believe it or not, the issue has a significant role to play in the greater story of the Second Apocalypse - I think I need to turn this 'no-answer answer' into a macro or something! Sorry Laughing
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Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2013, 07:43:13 pm »
Like the axlotl tanks. The Dunyain Women are actually the Non(wo)men, or at least have been bred as such...

Good thought about the lights. We know that wards and other things maintain enchantments without their caster and can stay inside objects.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 05:36:54 am »
I'll be sorely disappointed if there aren't some kick-ass Dunyain women.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 03:42:34 pm »
I agree.  Kellhus 'appears' to have no issue with granting world-born women the rights of men, so (cautiously) there appears to be no gender bias in the dunyain mentality.  Although, having said that, in all of Kel's flashbacks, never has there been mentioned a female character, so my previous assumption might be dead before it's even breathing.  Or maybe there's just a strict segregation policy in Ishual, but based on what stipulations are anyone's guess.
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Ishammael

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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 05:38:50 pm »
hi all.  long time stalker, first time poster.
On lunch break at work... so need to make it quick.
Earlier in this thread, there were a few comments on how the stars circle the world.  At face value, it seems like a silly notion, and the thought follows that there obviously must be plenty of other things they don't know or understand due to their isolation.

BUT

Don't we know there is something different about this planet?  Isn't that why the Inchies are here?
Is it possible this is an early seed planted to indicate the significance of this "crash-landing" spot for the Inchies?
Maybe the stars really DO circle around the world.  Maybe this is how the Inchies knew it was special, unique, or whatever they used to describe the significance of it.
What does that mean to story?  No clue. 
I'm sure someone can turn it into a rectal reference though, with very little effort...

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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 05:58:24 pm »
Yeah I'm pretty firmly in the camp that Earwa is literally in the center of the Bakkerverse, which, for whatever reason, is part of why sorcery only works there.

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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2013, 01:46:36 pm »
Like the axlotl tanks.

I'm really not sure how I would feel about this... I very much got the genderlessness feel from the OG Dunyain with the Bastard at Ishual. I would be less surprised if the Dunyain Women were like the Honoured Matres at this point.

Both would be difficult for Bakker to tackle properly.

I'd also like Fish Speakers but... I'm pretty dead-set on the Plato's Guardians comparison.

I agree.  Kellhus 'appears' to have no issue with granting world-born women the rights of men, so (cautiously) there appears to be no gender bias in the dunyain mentality.  Although, having said that, in all of Kel's flashbacks, never has there been mentioned a female character, so my previous assumption might be dead before it's even breathing.  Or maybe there's just a strict segregation policy in Ishual, but based on what stipulations are anyone's guess.

I hazard the bold. I'm sure that manipulative sexual intercourse is a natural extension of Dunyain training - and Kellhus doesn't behave exactly chaste when he gets to the Three-Seas. Thus, the mention of the Honoured Matres above, if you've had later book Dune exposure. Basically, you never had an orgasm like you have an orgasm with a Dunyain.

hi all.  long time stalker, first time poster.
On lunch break at work... so need to make it quick.
Earlier in this thread, there were a few comments on how the stars circle the world.  At face value, it seems like a silly notion, and the thought follows that there obviously must be plenty of other things they don't know or understand due to their isolation.

BUT

Don't we know there is something different about this planet?  Isn't that why the Inchies are here?
Is it possible this is an early seed planted to indicate the significance of this "crash-landing" spot for the Inchies?
Maybe the stars really DO circle around the world.  Maybe this is how the Inchies knew it was special, unique, or whatever they used to describe the significance of it.
What does that mean to story?  No clue. 
I'm sure someone can turn it into a rectal reference though, with very little effort...

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Ishammael. I think many of us would agree that there seems something 'central' to Earwa in the Void, possibly, but in the relationship to the outside, likely. However, our stars appear to circle the Earth too.

I'm not sure where exactly locke got that idea about Dunyain thinking the stars revolve around Earwa - there's the Logos meditation in TDTCB and the No-God hallucinations in TWP. But I'd guess locke just meant to mark that the Dunyain haven't figured beyond Geocentrism yet? Though, I'd think that a Geocentric Universe makes a measure of sense... But then I'd think the Inchoroi were markedly stupid to not get a general orientation towards a Universal and Metaphysical World-Tree plugging the hole to the Outside at the center of the Universe.

Hrm...

Yeah I'm pretty firmly in the camp that Earwa is literally in the center of the Bakkerverse, which, for whatever reason, is part of why sorcery only works there.

But why?! I can't accept things at face value.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 01:51:12 pm by Madness »
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2013, 11:13:53 pm »
Well, I'm not either, I suppose I should say it's more of a strong suspicion. But it just makes a lot of sense to me that Earwa is in the center of the Bakkerverse, going with the general theme of the series (anthropocentrism made real). I've considered before that it has to do with the whole "spheres of objectivity" thing. The Universe itself is largely objective, the Outside goes further out in levels, but then the center of the universe is some kind of mega-topoi or something.

ETA: As the poster above said, it would also explain why/how the Inchoroi found Earwa.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 08:36:39 pm by Francis Buck »

Wic

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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2013, 05:02:54 pm »
I don't know how I feel about Earwa being at the center, but I like the idea of the Mega-Topoi.  In all the Grounds the Inchoroi encountered before Earwa, they never discovered sorcery, right?  Something on Earwa, or the Outside, pushed or rent the boundaries between, long long ago.

But that's a bit off topic I suppose.

So if Bakker says gender in Dunyain society is relevant...how?  Did Kellhus destroy Ishual and herd the women to Ishterebinth for a breeding program?  Assuming they're just as intelligent and rational as any male Dunyain we've met, Kellhus could have laid out some grand plan for them involving the attainment of the absolute through crossbreeding and elimination of the Consult.  Could that be how he got Nil'giccas to work with the scalpers?

Of course, I don't know how to fit that with his meeting with Nin'sarricas.  Shit, I don't know how to fit any of this together.

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« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2013, 02:56:46 pm »
The Universe itself is largely objective, the Outside goes further out in levels, but then the center of the universe is some kind of mega-topoi or something.

ETA: As the poster above said, it would also explain why/how the Inchoroi found Earwa.

I would agree except that Bakker made the distinction between the Outside, layers of desire onion, and the Void, where the Inchoroi actually traveled.

Something on Earwa, or the Outside, pushed or rent the boundaries between, long long ago.

+1. Golgotterath is by its nature the deepest Topoi in Earwa. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Ark crashing was the distinctive factor? For instance, had the Inchoroi landed anywhere, they would have rent the World to the Outside?

But on that line of thinking, I'd hazard that the Nonmen enslaving the Emwama in their Nimil mines is original crack (Original Sin?).

But that's a bit off topic I suppose.

So if Bakker says gender in Dunyain society is relevant...how?  Did Kellhus destroy Ishual and herd the women to Ishterebinth for a breeding program?  Assuming they're just as intelligent and rational as any male Dunyain we've met, Kellhus could have laid out some grand plan for them involving the attainment of the absolute through crossbreeding and elimination of the Consult.  Could that be how he got Nil'giccas to work with the scalpers?

Of course, I don't know how to fit that with his meeting with Nin'sarricas.  Shit, I don't know how to fit any of this together.

Lol, you're doing fine, Wic - I don't really understand this outrageous bar that's been set as to what qualifies as 'content' around here and stops people from posting. The worst that can happen is that content-generating participation will change you more quickly than simply active-reading participation...

Firstly, I think Bakker's commentary alludes to how the Dunyain organized themselves before the events of the novels, in the two thousand year interim. As suggested by Somnambulist, Kellhus has absolutely no hesitation in using the Female Few to discharge the war against Golgotterath, which might reflect something of Ishual's gender relations.

Aside, to be quite honest, I'm not very convinced by arguments as to why Kellhus would destroy Ishual rather than recruit from them. And we'll know in all of five minutes reading the first chapter because Achamian is going to tell us whether or not sorcery was used to destroy the mountain fastness.

My personal guess is still Wutteat on his way back to Golgotterath.

EDIT: As to your question, Nil'giccas was probably wandering, murdering Sranc as per his mantra as Incariol, and when Kosoter ran into him, Kellhus had prepared Kosoter with information to ensnare Nil'giccas, promising to tell Incariol who he actually is.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 02:58:23 pm by Madness »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2013, 01:21:11 am »

Something on Earwa, or the Outside, pushed or rent the boundaries between, long long ago.

+1. Golgotterath is by its nature the deepest Topoi in Earwa. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Ark crashing was the distinctive factor? For instance, had the Inchoroi landed anywhere, they would have rent the World to the Outside?

Would love the irony of this.
But that's a bit off topic I suppose.

So if Bakker says gender in Dunyain society is relevant...how?  Did Kellhus destroy Ishual and herd the women to Ishterebinth for a breeding program?  Assuming they're just as intelligent and rational as any male Dunyain we've met, Kellhus could have laid out some grand plan for them involving the attainment of the absolute through crossbreeding and elimination of the Consult.  Could that be how he got Nil'giccas to work with the scalpers?

Of course, I don't know how to fit that with his meeting with Nin'sarricas.  Shit, I don't know how to fit any of this together.

Lol, you're doing fine, Wic - I don't really understand this outrageous bar that's been set as to what qualifies as 'content' around here and stops people from posting. The worst that can happen is that content-generating participation will change you more quickly than simply active-reading participation...
I understand it a bit. To the untrainted eye, most of the regulars seem to either know everything, speak as if they do, or use very professional sounding sentence structure :P. We're all just whistling in the dark.

Firstly, I think Bakker's commentary alludes to how the Dunyain organized themselves before the events of the novels, in the two thousand year interim. As suggested by Somnambulist, Kellhus has absolutely no hesitation in using the Female Few to discharge the war against Golgotterath, which might reflect something of Ishual's gender relations.
I think Bakker created this illusion that the makes the reader think they know far more about the Dunyain than we really do. The prologue of TDTCB pretends to tell the full story of the Dunyain. Bastard child, everyone dies, mysterious cult comes in and erases everything, 2000 years of isolation. End....

The Women have been hidden from us. No dunyain women, no nonmen women (nonwomen...), no inchoroi women, and until WLW no women sorcerers.
There is only 1 cult we know of that has women at the head, and its quickly becoming (has become) a major player, though somewhat ironically its main tools are men.
The female school has already proven to be extremely important.... its led by Serwa, but she is controlled by Kellhus....

Whatever, the point is, the woman that are introduced have turned out to be very important. At this rate, the men will all become pawns. Hell hath no furry like a women scorned.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 12:10:53 am by Wilshire »
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« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2013, 06:29:48 pm »
Lol, you're doing fine, Wic - I don't really understand this outrageous bar that's been set as to what qualifies as 'content' around here and stops people from posting. The worst that can happen is that content-generating participation will change you more quickly than simply active-reading participation...

I understand it a bit. To the untrainted eye, most of the regulars seem to either know everything, speak as if they do, or use very professional sounding sentence structure :P. We're all the whistling in the dark.

Pish, good Sir.

Firstly, I think Bakker's commentary alludes to how the Dunyain organized themselves before the events of the novels, in the two thousand year interim. As suggested by Somnambulist, Kellhus has absolutely no hesitation in using the Female Few to discharge the war against Golgotterath, which might reflect something of Ishual's gender relations.

I think Bakker created this illusion that the makes the reader think they know far more about the Dunyain than we really do. The prologue of TDTCB pretends to tell the full story of the Dunyain. Bastard child, everyone dies, mysterious cult comes in and erases everything, 2000 years of isolation. End....

The Women have been hidden from us. No dunyain women, no nonmen women (nonwomen...), no inchoroi women, and until WLW no women sorcerers.
There is only 1 cult we know of that has women at the head, and its quickly becoming (has become) a major player, though somewhat ironically its main tools are men.
The female school has already proven to be extremely important.... its led by Serwa, but she is controlled by Kellhus....

Whatever, the point is, the woman that are introduced have turned out to be very important. At this rate, the men will all become pawns. Hell hath no furry like a women scorned.

I don't think people will be able to tolerate a "the Female Dunyain did it" ;).
The Existential Scream
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