Sorcery

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« on: May 14, 2013, 10:32:14 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
I haven't yet gotten a satisfying explanation for the metaphysics of sorcery, but then again, I didn't really pay super-close attention to the sorcery parts in the books, so I might have missed a lot. Could someone better explain it to me?

Bakker seems to have taken Tolkien's concept of "magic is re-singing the Creation" (but inverted it, since the Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery leaves an unnatural stain on Creation). But it's never really explained how the Nonmen and humans learned how to warp existence in the first place. Did some God teach them to? But if that was the case, sorcery wouldn't be a crime against nature and leave an ugly mark. Or is the Mark caused by the incompleteness of humans trying to play God by using magic? I'm frankly a bit confused.

The article about sorcery on the PON wiki is shitty - it starts with "words are the tools by which sorcery is implemented", without ever describing what sorcery actually is.

So, could someone clear things up and better explain the workings of sorcery in Bakker-world?

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 10:32:20 pm »
Quote from: Madness
As much as I'm lurking here and Westeros, I'm also trying to do some reading week reading - I have limited willpower today.

There are threads in The Unholy Consult, Sorcery[/b], and in Misc. Chatter, Aporetic sorcery and I have a sneaking suspicion Curethan started one somewhere called "Sorcery." with the period.

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 10:32:30 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote
Did some God teach them to? But if that was the case, sorcery wouldn't be a crime against nature and leave an ugly mark.
It's implied that the earliest human Sorcerers were the Shamans. Since they were Prophets as well as Sorcerers, they (and their magic) quite possibly had no Mark. They also, presumably, were not considered damned.

We've never been provided with any information on how the Nonmen first learned Sorcery. However, it seems like they never had any concept of Sorcerers being damned just for using magic.

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 10:32:37 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I'm interested in how the Judging Eye, seeing with the Gods eyes, is related to speaking with the Gods voice or recollecting the Gods passion.

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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 10:32:48 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Shaeönanra's magic in "The False Sun" also weirded me out, since it doesn't seem consistent with the rules of sorcery in Eärwa.

How does one create an "object that occupies no point in space", and how does such an object even physically exist at all? It must physically exist (it's not described as an empty point or a black hole), in order to breach the barriers around Golgotterath, but...gah, it confuses the hell out of me.

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 10:32:51 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Just think about it as basic fourth grade math.

A point, X
A point, Y
A point, Z

A line, XY
A line, XZ
A line, YZ

A plane, XYZ

When doing basic geometry, how do your concepts exist at all?  If you don't write them down on paper your point has no physical existence.  Yet you can still think of a point, X. or a line, XY.

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 10:32:57 pm »
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Auriga
Shaeönanra's magic in "The False Sun" also weirded me out, since it doesn't seem consistent with the rules of sorcery in Eärwa.

How does one create an "object that occupies no point in space", and how does such an object even physically exist at all? It must physically exist (it's not described as an empty point or a black hole), in order to breach the barriers around Golgotterath, but...gah, it confuses the hell out of me.

Perhaps such objects utilize dimensions that are not experienced (or are imperceptible, a la string theory) in the Earwan universe.

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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:01 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Personally I find either of the two above explanations unhelpful.

For lockesnow's, that doesn't answer the question at all. Just because it exists in your mind doesn't mean it is manifest. The manifestation of a point that occupies no space wouldn't interact with the world. Even things like "point particles" in physics, a basic concept used to describe introductory physics, is just a theoretical/mathematical construct. It doesn't really exist, but it makes things a whole lot simpler.
Or a dirac delta, a curve with infinite height and an integral value = 1, is a close approximation of something like the "point that occupies no space" but again its a mathematical construct to simplify problems such that they can be solved without unnecessarily difficult math. Though useful and fair at approximating behaviors of certain ideal systems, such a thing isn't real. There is no such thing as a perfect valve.

Actually, that is a really good example of what the above mentioned "point" would end up looking like. The tool would be infinitely long and come to an infinitely sharp point that took up no space at the tip. But as infinity is a rather difficult place to get to, a tool made like that would be decidedly unwieldy :P


And Meyna's, I guess I just don't believe that Shae solved string theory and was applying it. Rape aliens and immortality and magic yes, solved string theory... nah.



Pretty much by definition, it doesn't exist if it doesn't occupy a point in space. Not to be confused with not having mass, or volume, like sound and light, and neutrinos can't be "captured" since they just float through shit whenever they want. Those things still occupy a point in space.

Though, another thought just came to me, Shae's key to the glamor could have been akin to some extremely focused beam of magic or some such idea. Like a laser, but with magic. The glamor is magical, so it would make sense if something magical broke it. Could have been more like finding its resonance frequency and emitting a "magic wave" that just amplified it and... boom, almighty glamor shakes itself apart.......

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:07 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Somewhere on Westeros there is some quality discussion and coherent solutions with persons more skilled in teh maths than I ;). Unfortunately, its not The False Sun thread.

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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:12 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
My understanding of math stops at practical application... i.e engineering. I guess you could say I'm using the analogies to real world idea to try and explain something far more abstract :P. It seems I cannot ever wield the gnosis, I cannot make the cognitive leaps on my own. I... have failed.

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:17 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Hahaha... forever an Anagogic sorcerer!

Lest you can be Cishaurim?

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:22 pm »
Quote from: Meyna
I didn't mean to suggest that sting theory is in effect in Earwa; I just meant that Earwa's "reality as it really is" could include auxiliary dimensions. It is quite a reach, though :lol:

Also, Anagogic sorcery isn't so bad. At least you have the Daimos!

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:27 pm »
v
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: lockesnow
Just think about it as basic fourth grade math.

When doing basic geometry, how do your concepts exist at all?  If you don't write them down on paper your point has no physical existence.  Yet you can still think of a point, X. or a line, XY.

This doesn't even make any sense.

If the concept only exists in your mind, then it doesn't exist in the physical world. The barriers around the Ark are physical, and Shaeönanra obviously used a physical spell to destroy them.

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:33 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
I think the westeros conclusion was that the math-thesis point of Shaeonanra disproved the mathematics that established the space-filling-curve of the Architect.

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:37 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Meyna
Also, Anagogic sorcery isn't so bad. At least you have the Daimos!

The Daimos is a pretty good bonus, and it's odd that more sorcerers aren't using it. Sorcerers are already people with nothing to lose. Sure, using the Daimos does condemn you to be tortured in the afterlife by the demons you've summoned into the living world, but seeing as you're already damned by using any sorcery, being double-damned shouldn't be too much of a deterrent. It's a bit like giving someone the death penalty twice.

I guess there are degrees of damnation in the afterlife of Bakkerverse - you could burn in hellfire for eternity, or you could burn in hellfire for eternity while simultaneously being raped forever by Zioz and friends.

I'm sorta looking forward to an epic Super-Daimos™ moment, where Kellhus and all the Scarlet Spires combine their Daimotic powers to draw out Yatwer into the physical realm and send her against the Consult. That would be a fun read.