Sorcery

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MG

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« Reply #180 on: September 24, 2014, 06:26:03 pm »
wouldn't it be cool if mekeritirg's cloak of faces had a proxy trapped in each face and it could do super-duper cloak magic???

Wilshire

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« Reply #181 on: September 24, 2014, 06:55:39 pm »
Maybe the faces can talk like Kellhus' demon heads. A portable concert.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #182 on: September 27, 2014, 11:46:28 pm »
"tears were the only holy waters"

The cish don't cry when the sing do they?

Well, Moe's eyes were "bleeding" during the confrontation with Kellhus, which is weird considering he must have taken his eyes out long ago (at the very least,he's eyeless during the weird Calling thing with the Emperor in book one).

Wilshire

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« Reply #183 on: September 28, 2014, 03:16:58 am »
Can you find that bleeding quote? Might be worth investigating...
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #184 on: September 28, 2014, 04:23:22 am »
Moe is still sitting under the waterfall and raises a cloth to his sockets and it comes away with two rose-colored stains.  I've thought about that a lot.  Moe also admits he's lived in darkness a long time.  If that's true, his sockets wouldn't still be bleeding.  It's possible he only put his eyes out recently in a last-ditch attempt to boost his access to the Water.  After all, everyone else in the Cish are blind, so they wouldn't know, and he could have glamored or whelmed those with eyes to convince them he was blind too.  I don't know if I subscribe to my own theory here, but it is an interesting inconsistency. Could also have been a decoy, a younger cish only just blinded, until Moe was sure Kel wasn't going to just try to kill him straight away.  He was fairly obscured by the water.  When Moe realized he wasn't in immediate danger, he pulled a swap and stepped out while the decoy retreated.
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MG

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« Reply #185 on: September 29, 2014, 12:53:08 am »
@ Wilshire - awesome!

@ Somnambulist - are suggesting that Moenghus became a Cish just before Kellhus found him?!?!  sweet seju, what would that imply?!?!

Somnambulist

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« Reply #186 on: September 29, 2014, 02:21:37 am »
Not really.  Like I said, I don't really believe that, but I suppose its a possibility.  In the further interaction with Kel, there is no mention of blood.  I'm inclined to think the latter (the bloody-socketed person was a decoy).  I was only suggesting that his blinding may have been more recent than he was letting on (but again I don't really think that was the case).
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MG

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« Reply #187 on: September 29, 2014, 10:21:46 am »
Not really.  Like I said, I don't really believe that, but I suppose its a possibility.  In the further interaction with Kel, there is no mention of blood.  I'm inclined to think the latter (the bloody-socketed person was a decoy).  I was only suggesting that his blinding may have been more recent than he was letting on (but again I don't really think that was the case).

oh well, it would be interesting if moe did that

maybe the eye sockets are like stigmata? they always bleed?

Wilshire

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« Reply #188 on: September 29, 2014, 03:50:39 pm »
What would cause rose-colored stains? Curious.

The obvious implication is blood, but as described above, this should be impossible.

Substitution: A possible explanation, but to me seams unlikely. I think Kellhus would have noticed at some point that there where 2 people. If the sub stayed at the entrance, he should have stopped Cnaiur/skin-spies, or at least caused a ruckus.



Stigmata: Hilarious. Moe anointed by the Solitary God, a true living prophet, slain by a false one? Not sure on this one. False Stigmata maybe? He opens the wounds in his eyes on a daily basis to portray this illusion?

Kellhus Hallucination: Like the Haoles, he sees it because he thinks they are there.

Authorial Lapse: Bakker forgot that Moe shouldn't be bleeding. Very unlikely. Moe has been blind for years, or at the very lease, months. He shouldn't still be bleeding, and that would be a fairly large mistake.


This line of thought led me to wonder again about the Psuke metaphysics. I think that one must be blind to unleash any water. My guess would be it has something to do with seeing the world as it truly is, unmarred by the false sight of eyes. I think that maybe everyone who can see the Onta that blinds themselves would posses the "third site". Akka described his vision as something akin to seeing the world as it truly was, so maybe being blind is just the next step. Onta sight is seeing a half-truth, and as such the sorceries mar it, while the Psuke see the whole-truth, allowing them to manipulate it fully and leave no mark.

I truly hope Akka created something extremely dangerous when he blinded Iyokus. The blind necromancer...
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rnblut@aol.com

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« Reply #189 on: September 29, 2014, 04:40:48 pm »
I just started re-reading the series for the 5th or 6th time.  Anyway, Moe appears in the first book as Mallahant (sp?).  He is the Cis that facilitates the negotiation between emperor and Skauras to betray the Holy War.  So, he was sightless for at least a year prior to meeting Kellhus.  BTW, no bloody sockets are mentioned in his description.

Interestingly the imperial sak regard him as the 2nd most powerful Cis and were it not for is heritage, he would be the Cis leader.  Now the imperial sak get a lot wrong and in the face of a holy war, I don't think the Cis would send their most powerful sorcerer to parley with the enemy.

BTW, this is my first post.  I've enjoyed all the conversations and speculations over the years.

Wilshire

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« Reply #190 on: September 29, 2014, 04:47:53 pm »
Right that's what I was thinking. That was his first appearance, like you said  about a year prior.

The Saik are profoundly ignorant of the Cishaurim. The fact that they think Moe isthe 2nd most powerful probably contributed to their egregious defeat in TTT. They severely underestimated the Cish and the Psuke at every turn.

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MG

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« Reply #191 on: September 29, 2014, 09:20:30 pm »
rnblut@aol.com - nice observation!  Bloody sockets would have been noticed right in front of Xerius.  If Mallahet really is the most powerful Cish, maybe they would be like "nah we can just send him by himself, he's got dat metapsukhe, and he bosses us all around anyways." 

The whole thing with Mallahet not being able to lead the Cish, I think that must be because that's what he wants it to be.  He wants to be the power behind the throne, to ultimately fool his son into thinking that Moe is weak.  As a dunyain, i bet he would be able to get the Cish to change any rule; like Kellhus getting the Gnosis from Akka.  I'm betting on Moe being far and away the most powerful waterbearer!!!

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Bolivar

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« Reply #192 on: September 30, 2014, 01:08:15 am »
Cememketri claimed the only thing keeping Mallahet from becoming Heresiarch is a law prohibiting non-Kianene from taking the title. I don't remember but I thought it was the Scarlet Spires who underestimated the Cishuarim, as the Saik did not follow them into Fanim land until coming to the aid of Conphas in TTT. I feel like the contrast between how well the Nansur understand the Fanim, compared to the routine ignorance of the rest of the Great Factions, might be at play here, with Bakker telling us Cememketri's estimation would have merit to it. He also expressed that Mallahet was capable of killing everyone at the parley, too.

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« Reply #193 on: September 30, 2014, 01:15:10 am »
Cememketri claimed the only thing keeping Mallahet from becoming Heresiarch is a law prohibiting non-Kianene from taking the title. I don't remember but I thought it was the Scarlet Spires who underestimated the Cishuarim, as the Saik did not follow them into Fanim land until coming to the aid of Conphas in TTT. I feel like the contrast between how well the Nansur understand the Fanim, compared to the routine ignorance of the rest of the Great Factions, might be at play here, with Bakker telling us Cememketri's estimation would have merit to it. He also expressed that Mallahet was capable of killing everyone at the parley, too.

Yeah, I remember noting this as well during a re-read of that scene. It's interesting because it really seems like the vast majority of the underestimating comes from the Scarlet Spires, which of course on the first read through they seem like a reliable source (being one of our main insights into sorcery aside from Akka), when in reality it's a lot of ignorance and assumption. I'm trying to remember any significant scenes where the Mandate's opinion on the Cishaurim. I feel like I remember Akka sort of following the same line of thought that the Scarlet Spires have (though perhaps less extreme), but I can't be sure.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 02:49:23 am by Francis Buck »

Triskele

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« Reply #194 on: September 30, 2014, 02:40:30 am »
Yeah, it's not the Saik that seem to underestimate them but the Scarlet Spires.  It's also kind of hilarious how both in the narrative and in the appendix there's some kind of mention of them thinking that "despite the sometimes unfathomable power of the Psukhe, they all agreed that it was still inferior to the Analogies."  lol

Cememketri does seem to imply that the fact that it's Mallahet means the parlay should be ended immediately such is the danger.  But Xerius wants to go forward and Moe as Mallahet just wants to help Skauras do the skype thing.  What's less clear to me is whether or not Cememketri's estimation of Mallahet's power simply comes from rumors or if it's anything more.  I think we're told that the Said skirmished with the Cishaurim here and there and Mallahet says something at the parlay like 'honor to an old foe,' but I don't think we're ever given a smidgen of evidence that Mallahet has ever taken the field.