Sorcery

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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2013, 09:59:20 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I guess not so much changed as evolved. Sure the library scene was sweet, but compared to the sorcery battles later on, it was nothing all that special. An exploded library and some dragon heads, compared to the battles in Shimeh? Not even a fair comparison. Then you look at that battle, and to Cleric in Cil-Aujas, again not even close, even when you look at Kel's metagnostic stuff. Then Cil compared to the dragon, or the battles of the Ordeal, again to me its a hugely different thing.

Why pretend like Kel could get away from a Quya mage in the first chapter, and then make the Quya out to be some kind of all powerful beings.

So yeah, not really changed, its always been called amazing, but each book the mages get exceptionally more powerful.

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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2013, 09:59:33 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Bakker most certainly does it on purpose.

TDTCB - Kellhus' encounter with Mekeritrig, Inrau fighting the Skin-Spies, Battle of Kiyuth, Parlay with Skauras and Xerius via Moenghus the Elder
TWP - Cant of Calling (first sight of the Mandate Gnosis), Bar of Heaven, Psuhkari at the Battle of Mengedda, Wathi Doll, Soretic Library (Anagogic vs. Gnosis), Soretic Library (Daimos), Siege of Caraskand (Psuhke vs. Anagogis)

Then TTT, the first real battle we see of Sorcery from Schoolmen's perspectives - Bakker did want to call TTT When Sorcerers Sing - the Battle of Shimeh, Anagogic vs. Psuhke, Gnosis vs. Daimos again, Gnosis vs. Anagogis again.

Then finally we see some raging Gnosis and Quyan Gnosis in TJE but really its a pittance compared to the Battles in WLW when the Schools of the Great Ordeal are unleashed.

I'd say in the Unholy Consult shit is gonna hit the fan. I wouldn't doubt if we finally see the explosive Gnosis vs. Gnosis, which is clearly the only contender for where this is going to go - also Metagnosis vs. ? the Consult has come up with. I'm counting on seeing some Aporetic Sorcery going down and probably a more thorough understanding of the Psuhke.

However, that really, really depends on whether or not the Consult will contest Dagliash themselves, or simply let their minions do it.

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« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2013, 09:59:42 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
I loved that he took his time showing us how unbelievably powerful Achamian was.

For most of TDTCB, he's pitiful. And when you finally realize he really can boil people from the inside just by thinking it... the character transforms.

The sheer magnitude of his abilities combined with the reluctance to ever use them, shows us the true heart of a Skeptic. A believer-skeptic. Who no longer knows what to believe.

Always reminds me of the best thing Tolkien ever wrote:
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

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« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2013, 10:00:13 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Layers of Revelation, man.

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« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2013, 10:00:22 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
The Chorae Hoard is how Sakarpus managed to survive the First Apocalypse. The No-God circumvented it, saving his limited sorcerous resources to overcome the South.

One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
Good questions, all. Personally, I've always worried that the Chorae may come across as too ad hoc, as mere narrative conveniences that allow a happy (but not very credible) balance between the sorcerous and the non-sorcerous. But in point of fact, that role came after - the Chorae developed independently. From the outset, I've looked at each of the sorcerous branches in linguistic terms, as practices where language commands, rather than conforms to, reality. So the Anagogis turns on the semantic power of figurative analogies, the Gnosis turns on the semantic power of formal generalizations, the Psukhe turns on speaker intention, and so on. And much as language undoes itself in paradoxes, sorcery can likewise undo itself. The Aporos is this 'sorcery of paradox,' where the meanings that make sorcery possible are turned in on themselves to generate what might be called 'contradiction fields.'

Since the metaphysics of sorcery actually plays a significant role in TTT, it would probably be better to postpone a more in depth discussion until then.

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« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2013, 10:00:33 pm »
Quote from: coobek
I cannot wait for Apropos to be revealed. I wonder if it will be Mimara who is the one.

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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2013, 10:00:43 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: coobek
I cannot wait for Apropos to be revealed. I wonder if it will be Mimara who is the one.

With her initial extreme interest in magic, combined with their proximity to the Nonmen who are perhaps the only ones left who remember.... And what a wonderful way to get back at the world that wronger her by destroying its savior? Fits nicely.

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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2013, 10:00:52 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to nit-pick, coobek, but aporetical (a. Doubting; skeptical.) has a quite different meaning from apropos (adj. Being at once opportune and to the point.)

Apologies.

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« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2013, 10:01:01 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
'Aporos' means, literally, 'non-passage' (i.e. 'impasse'). The argument that encounters it passes no further.

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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2013, 10:01:11 pm »
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to nit-pick, coobek, but aporetical (a. Doubting; skeptical.) has a quite different meaning from apropos (adj. Being at once opportune and to the point.)

Apologies.

You got me there. My explanation = English is not my mother tongue.

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« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2013, 10:01:21 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Another relevant and interesting quote from the Other Place (emphasis mine):

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos. Aporetic Cants have no other effect. Salting is actually a kind of side effect. I would rather wait until TTT comes out before discussing the metaphysics - it has to do with the Mark.

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« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2013, 10:01:37 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to nit-pick, coobek, but aporetical (a. Doubting; skeptical.) has a quite different meaning from apropos (adj. Being at once opportune and to the point.)

Apologies.

You got me there. My explanation = English is not my mother tongue.

I know mate, sorry.  Just got hit by the dissonance there.
And hey, now you know ;)

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« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2013, 10:01:46 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol. You all impress me everyday.

+1 Duskweaver. So... Salting isn't a reflection of Faith or the Outside but of the sorcery of the Aporos.

Does that suggest an additional attribute of Sorcerer's Salt? (I mean, we've gone over it a couple times in the past, certainly in my personal life, but mundane value of salt is huge historically!) Yet there's another quote in the Cishaurim thread that suggests Cishaurim aren't affected in the same way (I see, some of you have weighed in there already :)).

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« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2013, 10:02:09 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
Does that suggest an additional attribute of Sorcerer's Salt? (I mean, we've gone over it a couple times in the past, certainly in my personal life, but mundane value of salt is huge historically!)
I've always thought that dead-sorcerer-salt is just plain ordinary halite. That passage that gets trotted out as evidence of something more (the bit about some kid making his fortune from harvesting a salted sorcerer after a battle in one of the PoN books) never seemed at all convincing to me. 150-odd pounds of ordinary NaCl (I'm assuming the transformation more-or-less preserves the sorcerer's original mass) would be worth a heck of a lot (certainly enough to make somebody's fortune) in any comparable historic period in our world.

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« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2013, 10:02:22 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 Duskweaver. But... I'd still hazard that there's a purposeful reason for that scene.