What you didn't like in the series or what it lacks?/Excessive Segue of Calvalry

  • 49 Replies
  • 8016 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2013, 11:26:25 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol, I really enjoyed your commentary, Bakker User.

Sorry, I didn't transcribe the whole fight, just stuff that bore on our Cavalry discussion ;).

By the way, I vote we move all our pertinent posts to History allusions thread at this point :).

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 11:26:30 pm »
Quote from: coobek
Quote
So let me reiterate my core contention - no cavalry can charge heavy infantry formations from the front with intent to engage in protracted melee and survive. The tight order of the opposing infantry, their armor, their weapons, their preparedness, their elan, etc. You have to think about this in physical terms. Let's say we've got heavy lancers like cataphracts, charging into a phalanx. Only the first few ranks of the cavalry can make the impact (or else the rear would slaughter the front), so there needs to be a wide formation, perhaps so wide as to bar any friendly infantry from engaging at the same time, creating an immediate front-wide numerical disadvantage. A deep formation would further block any retreat - it's a bottleneck. But now let's talk about the melee - once the charge is made, the lances will mostly have been ruined, so the secondary weapon - sabre or longsword, typically - must be equipped. The cavalry will have to get in amongst the infantry. Now, cavalry like routing infantry or loose enemy formations because it allows the cavalry to take advantage of their greatest asset - mobility. In such a formation, the infantry are confused and horsemen may come at them from multiple directions at once, and so work together to bring them down etc. This is also a very demoralizing position and could evoke a rout in a loose formation or utterly panic already routed troops. But against a tight formation, a handful of horsemen are bearing down on multiple enemies at once, who can lend each other mutual support (while crowded cavalry interfere with each other at a lower density)... (Don't underestimate, by the way, the morale boost from standing shoulder-to-shoulder with your comrades.) Let's say, hwoever, that a few of  the horsemen break through the line -  then what? The first couple of ranks of infantry were brought low in the charge, but since here we're assuming that they didn't rout or break formation, we can be sure that multiple ranks remain behind the penetration. So now a handful of horsemen find themselves with enemy infantry on three sides. (Don't forget that a horse (especially one without stirrups) is an unstable fighting platform.) How long before they are pulled down, stabbed through the thigh ,or whatever? Seconds...

You just described the tactics of Lancknechts vs Knights. As said before this was the 1400's and with this tactics the age of Knights have come to an end. One very important point to make here that Lancknecht same as Phalanx & Legionaries formed a very deep formations from all sides, square, therefore the impeteus of the cavalery almost always waned at the end hacked by the Halaberds and DH Swords of Swiss and German knechts.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 11:26:36 pm »
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Bakker User
Only the first few ranks of the cavalry can make the impact (or else the rear would slaughter the front), so there needs to be a wide formation, perhaps so wide as to bar any friendly infantry from engaging at the same time, creating an immediate front-wide numerical disadvantage. A deep formation would further block any retreat - it's a bottleneck. But now let's talk about the melee - once the charge is made, the lances will mostly have been ruined, so the secondary weapon - sabre or longsword, typically - must be equipped. The cavalry will have to get in amongst the infantry. Now, cavalry like routing infantry or loose enemy formations because.

Again I'll describe the tactics of Hussars which went against Musketeers supported by pikeman so not your regular Antic period :) I agree.

1. The wagons with the lances followed the Hussars. Sometimes they attacked 9 times changing the already used up lances. So in fact mobility if properly applied ment that you can also disengage on your own terms.
2. Lances were longer than Pike! since they were special hollow design. Hussars.
3. AS stated above 1600s infrantry was already designed to fight against other infrantry and employed less deep formation, seems it was the key to failure against Heavy Cavalry also the muskets were extremely unreliable weapon.

Example Battle of Kircholm  100-200 dead Hussars vs 6.000-9.000 Swedish troops.


But Again we are discussing different time periods maybe thats the case.

I feel that the failed tactics used by Kian was due to lack of encounters with Ce-Tydon and Thunyeri warriors.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 11:26:41 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Reasonable explanation.
They were used to fighting the Scylvendi (mainly mounted forces) and the Nansur.
Presumably the Nansur columnaries tended to break formation when charged, I guess.

Skauras may have also expected Conphas to (treacherously) facilitate his tactics?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2013, 11:26:46 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: coobek
Example Battle of Kircholm  100-200 dead Hussars vs 6.000-9.000 Swedish troops.
The hussars here weren't charging into the front of readied heavy infantry, though. The Commonwealth troops lured the Swedes into breaking formation with a feigned retreat (an eminently believable one, since the Swedes outnumbered them like three to one!), took out the Swedish cavalry and then flanked the disorganised Swedish infantry. Some Swedish heavy infantry units were getting charged from three sides at once.

Kircholm was essentially a cavalry battle between the Commonwealth hussars (almost certainly the best heavy cavalry in the world at the time) and the Swedish reiters (light cavalry equipped principally for ranged combat, although Sweden's reiters were better experienced at close quarters fighting than those of most other nations at the time). The poor bloody Swedish infantry were rendered largely irrelevant by their crappy discipline and the fact that King Karl IX seems to have been a bit of a tactical moron.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2013, 11:26:52 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Really interesting perspectives - I definitely think we're restricted to a certain time period for Earwan warfare... Aside from what Kellhus offers later, what's the modern edge of our speculation based on weapons, armor, tactics?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 11:26:56 pm »
Quote from: Ajokli
Could've used more Serwe. Like, maybe 100% more. If Bakker wrote a Serwe spin-off about her happier days in Cepalor, I'd die complete.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2013, 11:27:01 pm »
Quote from: coobek
Some of them did. Some of the Hussars charged the infrantry on the fron. The fighting on the flank was also done with hussars vs regiment and the regiment in fact was facing fornt to the Hussars.

But indeed the whole tactics used in this battle was to lure out the weak part of the Swedish army out of the group. No suprise if you are outnumbered 1:3.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2013, 11:27:09 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lmao. Ajokli. Way to be on topic ;).

Join on the Almanac, if you like, I just posted summaries and thoughts on Ch. 13 & .14 of TDTCB - Serwe's pretty kickass.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2013, 11:27:18 pm »
Quote from: coobek
But the Avatar compensates the off topicness in this respect. It made me happy already.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2013, 11:27:23 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol, coobek, we are the ones off topic at this point.

Ajokli is directly on topic. He wants more Serwe in the series :P.

But please, by all means, don't stop discussing! We can always clean up and reorganize. So many wicked perspectivres :D.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2013, 11:27:27 pm »
Quote from: Ajokli
I'd love to join the Almanac League of Extraordinary Philosophers but I fear the level of intellect is far beyond my abilities

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2013, 11:27:33 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I will hear none of it. You take us right off that pedestal and kick that marble tower the fuck over ;).

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2013, 11:27:39 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Ajokli
I'd love to join the Almanac League of Extraordinary Philosophers but I fear the level of intellect is far beyond my abilities
You're at least smart enough to come up with a name whose acronym is ALEPh. That's pretty cool.


What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2013, 11:27:45 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lmao. Ajokli... now would be a good time to change your rank. Surely, this marks you as one of the Aleph.