History allusions in TSA

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« on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:03 pm »
Quote from: Davias
The thread about the biblical allusions in TSA was very interesting and because I'm interested in history and rereading the series at the moment, I have thought about a similar thread about more or less history allusions in TSA.

I'm currently reading the first trilogy and I have read the little story about the King of the island state Cironj in the first book, who blackmailed some Inrithi Lords to attack a pirate island, because they hadn't enough money to buy the passage on his ships.

A few months ago, I had read a book about Venice and the Fourth crusade. The crusaders in venice hadn't enough money to buy the passage on the fleet to the Holy Land. The leader of Venice, Dandolo, blackmailed the Lords of the Crusaders and they attacked the christian city of Zara near the Dalmatian coast, to get rid of the pirates in the adriatic sea and to expand Venice's supremacy in the region.

Have you found similar, almost direct parallels to historical events in TSA?

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:08 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
The capture of Antioch in the First Crusade, which appears at the end of book two.

Saubon is based on the main figure involved in the fall of Antioch, even.

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:14 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I have better thoughts but I am le super tired.

For now, let me regale you with tales of Three-Seas past:

Quote from: Uroborian Circles
Just wanted to see if everyone thought this is accurate.

The Races-
Norsirai: Mix of Nordic, Germanic, Celtic or general Western Europeans
Scylvendi: Mix of Scythian, Russian or general Eastern Europeans
Ketyai: Mix of Assyrian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Persian, Indian or general Middle Easterns
Zeumi: Mix of Egyptian, Ethiopian or General Africans

Philosophical Parallels- (General ones. Not getting into every character or facet of schools of thought)
The Dunyain: Pragmatism
The Mandate: Platonism
The Scarlet Spires: Hedonism (The whores...)
The Cishaurim: Mysticism
The Consult: Nihilism

Quote from: Harrol
I agree with these parallels and there is a general consensus from most on this. Scott did say that the Scylvendi were mostly derived from the Sarmatians.

Quote from: xatantius
I always knew Bakker took existing events for the PoN storyline, but I was surprised to what extent. I researched the Crusades recently and found very glaring similarities to the Holy War, aside form the obvious conflict between religions and nations. e.g.
The Byzantine Emperor at the time of the Crusades, Alexius I, made the leaders of the Crusades sign a treaty giving all lands conquered to the Byzantine Empire in exchange for provisions-sound familiar?
The People's Crusade was a 100,000-strong 'army' of peasants, women and old men led by a glory-seeking monk named Peter the Hermit, most of whom were massacred by the Turks and Seljuks-sound familiar?
During the Siege of Antioch in 1097, Bohemund of Taranto bribed a city guard for entrance to one of the city's towers and gained control of the city-sound familiar?
Personally, i think the following seems correct;
Nansur-Byzantine Empire
Galeoth-France
Ce Tydonn-Holy Roman Empire
High Ainon-Italy
Conriya-Britain
Thunyerus-Nordic nations
Kian/Shigek/Gedea/Enathpaneah-Turks/Seljuks/Saracens/Persians

...

I admit, Conriya as England is a stretch, but the Ainoni have many characteristics similar to old Italy-the power and population of their nations, the colour of their skin, the culture of art and high society. Of course, there are probably just as many points to the contrary, so maybe you're right.

Quote from: anor277
No doubt, Scott based Scylvendi folkways on the Scythians, but as an all-conquering people of war who were only defeated in battle once or twice, the Scylvendi clearly mirror the Mongols - a people of war with an advanced military machine whose campaigns had devastating effects on Christian kingdoms and Islamic sultanates at the time of the Crusades.

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:19 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
I'll note that Scylvendi are a really bad match for Scythians/Sarmatians (and, in fact, most historical steppe nomads), at least where it comes to gender roles. They feel more like early Slavs to me. Their physical description seems more intended to evoke Howard's fictionalised Cimmerians, of course. ;)

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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:24 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
I agree that Scylvendi are mostly based on the Mongols, or at least fill the same role in Erwa that the Mongols did in our history. There are obvious Scythian and Sarmatian influences on them as well, such as their pale-skinned "Cimmerian" appearance.

As for the other nations in the Three Seas:

Nansur - the Byzantine Empire.
Serw's people - the Slavs living on the Byzantine Empire's edges.
Galeoth - Normandy (several parallels to Normans, those ambitious ex-barbarians who picked up a Latin culture)
Ce Tydonn - a hodge-podge of Nazi Germany, the Teutonic Order kingdoms, and the Anglo-Saxons in Britain (a Germanic minority ruling over the Roman Briton majority, as the Cengemi are an older Ketyai people. Although they're the equivalent of Mesopotamians, rather than Romans.)
Thunyerus - Scandinavia (a stand-in for recently-Christianized barbarian Vikings)
Conriya - Southern France with an odd Mesopotamian culture (the Eastern Ketyai generally have Mesopotamian names, and the old Shiradi Empire seems to parallel Akkadia).
Cironj - Crete or maybe Sicily (it definitely has a Greek culture).
High Ainon - a mixture of Venice and Neo-Babylon, a wealthy merchant empire like the medieval Italian city-states, but again with an obvious ancient Mesopotamian influence on the culture and history.
Shigek - Egypt.
Kian - the Arab Caliphate.
Girgash - the Muslim parts of northern India.
Nilnamesh - India.
Zem - Ethiopia (a mysterious and old civilization in Sub-Sahara Africa), with aspects of Imperial China.


And as for philosophies:

Mandate - Platonism
Scarlet Spires - Epicureanism
Cishaurim - Mysticism (Sufi Islam is the obvious parallel)

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:30 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1, Auriga.

I know that Iron Men and Saints by Harold Lamb is a huge inspiration for PON. Lamb's stuff reads like the other side of Homer's coin in Bakker's omniscient war passages.

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:34 pm »
Quote from: Amun
I may have found a religious allusion, but since it's not biblical I'll put it here.

There is an Egyptian goddess of birth called Taweret, a name which reminds me of Yatwer. Bakker likes to play with names (Inri Sejenus = Jesus, etc.), so I can see the two being parallels with each other. Both contain the consonants "twr" which is important in languages like ancient Egyptian where many words are formed with three consonant roots.

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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:40 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I definitely think myth can and should be included, Amun.

Very cool catch.

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:45 pm »
Quote from: Bakker User
Perhaps not totally on-topic, but this thread is the best fit:

I picked up a tiny bit of Classical Greek (Attic) during my ancient-history kick three years ago. I noticed afterward that of the Inrithi gods, the Whore of Fate is called Anagke.

Anagke in ancient Greek meant "necessity".

Is that clever?

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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:56 pm »
Quote from: Centurion
It's already been said before, but the Holy War of the PoN Trilogy is an almost step-by-step parallel of the First Crusade of 1096.  It was almost jarring for me when I realized just how similar they were.  Even many of the characters have strong similarities to real world equivalents (ex. Ikurei Xerius III and Alexius Komnenos [without the psychopathic mother]; Coithus Saubon and Bohemund of Taranto [possibly the strongest parallel in the books]; Ikurei Conphas and Tatikios [but of course Conphas wasn't a eunuch and Tatikios didn't try to take over the Crusade...rather the opposite actually]; and there's another character in PoN whose name I cannot recall who bears a strong resemblance to Tancred, nephew of Bohemund).  Anyway, there are plenty of differences to establish PoN as its own story, but the First Crusade was obviously a very strong influence.

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 11:37:10 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol... there are a couple threads that touch on this but no, not out of place, Bakker User. They should almost be consolidated into one. Perhaps, if they can all be found.

Often times, we've found plenty of these correlations but it soon becomes a mire of contradiction (in the different meanings) and ultimately... how much does Bakker know, how much of it is he consciously using.

That is a neat catch though. Fate is what happens, deterministically?

+1, Centurion.

I'm starting to think that Bakker intentionally evokes strong historical connotations in the first series to sway our secular associations - also, the strong contesting of Faith.

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 11:37:17 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol... there are a couple threads that touch on this but no, not out of place, Bakker User. They should almost be consolidated into one. Perhaps, if they can all be found.

Often times, we've found plenty of these correlations but it soon becomes a mire of contradiction (in the different meanings) and ultimately... how much does Bakker know, how much of it is he consciously using.

That is a neat catch though. Fate is what happens, deterministically?

+1, Centurion.

I'm starting to think that Bakker intentionally evokes strong historical connotations in the first series to sway our secular associations - also, the strong contesting of Faith.

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 11:37:22 pm »
Quote from: Bakker User
Quote from: Madness
Fate is what happens, deterministically?

Hmm... isn't it the other way around?

Fate has an element of intentionality, doesn't it?

If determinism can be described as, "what comes before determines what comes after", then fate/destiny would be something like, "what comes after determines what comes before".

Right?

Think "Chosen One", think "prophecy", all that.

I should note here that the verb form, anagkadzein, means "compel".

 :idea:

That's what I've imagined

(click to show/hide)

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 11:37:32 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Way I see it is, fate is the knowing about it can't change it thing rather than foreknowledge required to enacte events.
Predeterminism - it doesn't matter who knows what when.
Like a book, the observer is completely detached, its a closed system.  Conciousness is an illusion.

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 11:37:37 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I don't think you had to spoiler that, Bakker User.

Quote from: Bakker User
fate/destiny would be something like, "what comes after determines what comes before".

Quote from: Curethan
Predeterminism - it doesn't matter who knows what when.

+2. Are these separate?