The PreFAQ

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« on: May 14, 2013, 11:50:56 pm »
Quote from: Madness
In the past week, Willem has become something of a spokesperson for the lurkers/less immersed/new readers who are intimidated, threatened, overwhelmed, or confused by the amount of content here at Second Apocalypse. Since I have only two immediate goals for the forum and both depend on leveraging the social fulcrums of a cultivated noosphere and it's interaction within and without of itself, I thought I'd sound the community.

What are the Frequently Asked Questions of the Prince of Nothing and the Aspect-Emperor - The Second Apocalypse, thus far?

I honestly don't know. Willem commented on the Old Names here being blinded by their immersion into this content - if that's true, I'm living somewhere in Bakker's colon. I read very little fiction anymore - though every once and awhile a gem comes along - and it should be evident that I'm contented in parsing the minutia of Bakker's works.

All voices are equal at the Second Apocalypse... this is one place where you'll be grilled on your heuristics and biases first, argument second. And thankfully, the former is generally omitted and as a result, as you can see, much of the bullshit of other forums is absent from this place as well.

Any new voice might add completely novel speculation... even a cursory glance of the threads in Unholy Consult or Misc. Chatter should suggest that even five books in, we're still debating many of the same things. There are very few consensuses among the ambiguity. Again, Bakker says the depth is there and I'm willing to take him at his word, especially as people have successfully written academic papers on his works. Three Pounds is not enough to crack the riddle of the Second Apocalypse. And I want to solve it ;).

So again, in the interest of generating interest... What goes in a TSA FAQ?

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:03 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
maybe this belongs in the collected sayings thread, but no one ever actually mentions there that Bakker's online handle is Cū'jara Cinmoi, or the significance of that name.  That knowledge is just assumed. So I think one FAQ should be:

Who is Cū'jara Cinmoi? 

Cū'jara Cinmoi was R Scott Bakker's original online handle when he participated in forum discussions about his work.  So the Collected Sayings of Cū'jara Cinmoi encompasses what the author has said about his books and world as well as other quotations and aphorisms he has made.  He used this handle before it was revealed at the ends of The Warrior Prophet (and in The Thousandfold Thought glossary) how significant Cū'jara Cinmoi was in the history of Earwa.  Cū'jara Cinmoi was a cunoroi (nonman) king, the preeminent king, when the Inchoroi first came to Earwa.  His machinations against and with the Inchoroi led to the immortality of the cunoroi race and the extinction of the cunoroi females.  His wars wiped out all but a handful of the inchoroi before he was slain by a former cunoroi adversary whom he had conquered before the inchoroi threat united the cunoroi.

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:08 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Cheers, lockesnow.

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:13 pm »
Quote from: WillemB
Quote from: Madness
In the past week, Willem has become something of a spokesperson for the lurkers/less immersed/new readers who are intimidated, threatened, overwhelmed, or confused by the amount of content here at Second Apocalypse.

LOL - wow, if ever there was a group for which I didn't want to be unofficial spokesperson... I hope I don't seem intimidated, threatened, or confused by the content.  Definitely overwhelmed by the sheer volume of posts, and wanting to participate.  Filled with a love for this amazing series; haunted by RSB's visceral depictions of human folly.   I've read and reread all five books, cringing like I'm about to be slapped. 

Quote from: Madness
Willem commented on the Old Names here being blinded by their immersion into this content - if that's true, I'm living somewhere in Bakker's colon.

Hehe.  How's the wireless access in there?  I offered the word "impenetrable" in reference to the breadth and depth of speculation.  As I said elsewhere and with respect, you guys go deep.  Colon deep?   :shock:  Adds new meaning to "crack-ing the riddle."

Back on track - perhaps the FAQ would be a good place for a sort of speculative "greatest hits"? 

Top shelf characters could be picked from the roster at the end of the books, and links could provided, bullet point style, referencing and cross-referencing the relevant threads.  This would serve two purposes: it would provide a point of access for new forum members to find their way into the speculation, and it would give Old Names someplace to send the new members.   ;)

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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:19 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: WillemB
Definitely overwhelmed by the sheer volume of posts, and wanting to participate. Filled with a love for this amazing series; haunted by RSB's visceral depictions of human folly. I've read and reread all five books, cringing like I'm about to be slapped.

+1. No, Willem, you did not seem those other things. But you've offered the best alternative perspective - you know, I'm in trouble when I don't even realize that there are alternatives. I adopted a shotgun approach in guessing people's states...

Wireless is spotty. Just like my campus wireless.

Quote from: WillemB
Back on track - perhaps the FAQ would be a good place for a sort of speculative "greatest hits"?

Top shelf characters could be picked from the roster at the end of the books, and links could provided, bullet point style, referencing and cross-referencing the relevant threads. This would serve two purposes: it would provide a point of access for new forum members to find their way into the speculation, and it would give Old Names someplace to send the new members.

The PreFAQ is there for anyone - I find it interesting that we're having to guess at an FAQ... Where are the frequently asked questions, anyways?

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:24 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
So, uh, asked a friend of mine who just finished PON if he could give me some insight to his FAQ's.... he's been busy :P. Too bad this didn't come up when I was coaching him and another through the books. Could have really shared some stuff. Alas.

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:29 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I asked a friend too. But honestly, she didn't ask simple questions...

What's Esmenet's deal? Why's Achamian even trying? Where are the other Dunyain? What's Kellhus endgame?

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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:34 pm »
Quote from: jogrady
Ive seen a lot of sorcery questions lately. I created an detailed chart describing and connecting the branches, sub-branches, and advanced theories of Sorcery. I was logged out before I could post it. I really don't want to do it again, and I am sure someone could do a better job. It would be a good reference for new readers and helpful to those trying to work out whats next in the world of Singing. I can do it but be warned it will take some time, Im very busy.

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:39 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Thanks for thoughts, jogrady, and I'm sorry that the ethernet ate your post - I think many of us know firsthand how frustrating that feels.

Hmm... for the life of me I can't think of a big list.

Quyan Gnosis - Gnosis
Quyan Daimos, Gnostic Daimos, Anagogic Daimos
Anagogis
Mbimayun Totemic?
Folkloric?
Witchcraft - Anagogis?
Psukhe
Aporos

Anything else? I will gladly make some kind of chart with speculations/descriptions...

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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:45 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
how about:

What do all those goofy symbols above the letters mean?  Are they traditional guides to pronunciation, or just used because they look cool/other?

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:50 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
Thanks for thoughts, jogrady, and I'm sorry that the ethernet ate your post - I think many of us know firsthand how frustrating that feels.

Hmm... for the life of me I can't think of a big list.

Quyan Gnosis - Gnosis
Quyan Daimos, Gnostic Daimos, Anagogic Daimos
Anagogis
Mbimayun Totemic?
Folkloric?
Witchcraft - Anagogis?
Psukhe
Aporos

Anything else? I will gladly make some kind of chart with speculations/descriptions...

internet is too slow where I am at currently but it might be useful to make a mindmap, take a screenshot, and upload the pic.

mind42.com
Username: TSAforum
Password: TSAforum

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 11:51:57 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quality idea, Wilshire. I made a map of what's in the quote. I'm still wondering what I'm missing...

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:02 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
I'm still wondering what I'm missing...
You're missing Shamanism.

EDIT: I've tried using that mindmapping site to represent the evolutionary/developmental relationships of human sorcery (as a map called 'Shamanism'), but it doesn't seem to be possible to show the (independently developed) Nonmen sorcery on the same map, nor to properly show the convergent evolution of the Daimos.

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:07 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Possibly adding to Shamanic; Cultic thaumaturgy like Psatma does (and Porsporian).

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:13 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Curethan
Possibly adding to Shamanic; Cultic thaumaturgy like Psatma does (and Porsporian).
Which neatly brings us back to the ancient conflict between the Few and the Prophets that RSB mentioned on Zombie Three Seas as being the ultimate origin of the Anagogis (and the end of the Shamans).

What may have happened is this:

  • Originally, among the Men of Eanna, magic was the monopoly of the Shamans. They were of the Few, their souls recalling the God of Gods in near-perfect proportion, and were also considered holy, with a direct line to the will of the divine. They were Prophets and Sorcerers in one (to the point that this distinction was meaningless then).
  • At some point (still in Eanna, long before the Tusk), individuals arose who claimed to represent the Gods as Prophets, but who were not of the Few, and whose souls did not have any special recollection of the God of Gods. This perhaps gave the Gods a means of bypassing the God of Gods' influence and interfering in the World themselves, each with their own individual agenda.
  • Probably the Gods gave their Prophets 'magical' powers (miracles/thaumaturgy), but these remained under the control/will of the Gods, not of the Prophets themselves.
  • There was eventually a conflict (initially political/philosohical, but eventually violent) between the Shamans and the Prophets. The Prophets won and outlawed/condemned Sorcery.
  • The Prophets monopolised the claim of representing the divine. This was the beginning of recognisable Kiunnat beliefs, with the Gods and their laws as pre-eminent and the God of Gods as an impotent 'placeholder' to represent the Gods as a collective.
  • The Few were driven into the shadows, near-universally believed damned as witches and forced to pass on their knowledge of Sorcery in secret, disguised as herbalism or harmless folk magic. Knowledge of magical healing was entirely lost.
  • The condemnation of Sorcery was thus already widely accepted in Eanna when the Inchoroi compiled the beliefs of the Five Tribes into the Tusk. Likewise, Shamans (Sorcerer-Prophets) were a distant memory, already a myth to most. They got a brief mention in the Tusk but nothing more. The same with healing magic.
  • During or after the Breaking of the Gates, the Men of the Four Tribes began to realise that they needed Sorcery. A few miracles handed out to Prophets by the Gods just didn't cut it against Quya mages. Sorcerers began to assemble into Schools and formalise their oral traditions into the Anagogis.
  • Under the Nonmen Tutelage, the Nonmen demonstrate to Norsirai Sorcerers the conceptual leaps necessary to adapt the Anagogis into the Gnosis. The God's thoughts can be represented more accurately as Gnostic theorems than as mere analogies. It is akin to representing fundamental particles as mathematical formulae rather than as tiny billiard balls bouncing around in space.
  • Inri Sejenus and Fane each tried to bring back the idea of the God of Gods as pre-eminent. Fane also combined the roles of Prophet and Sorcerer. Were one or both of these individuals true Shamans?
EDIT: Umm... the bullet formatting doesn't appear to work.
EDIT2: Never mind. I was doing it wrong. :oops: