The PreFAQ

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What Came Before

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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:23 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Strange edit...

- I would just do bullet form myself?
- I didn't realize that these forum's had that level of formatting available ;)?

Quote from: Duskweaver
The condemnation of Sorcery was thus already widely accepted in Eanna when the Inchoroi compiled the beliefs of the Five Tribes into the Tusk. Likewise, Shamans (Sorcerer-Prophets) were a distant memory, already a myth to most. They got a brief mention in the Tusk but nothing more. The same with healing magic.

You paint a coherent picture excepting this quote: I'm convinced that the Inchoroi were probably simultaneously interacting with the Eanni as Gods from the Fall, as they interacted with the Nonmen of Earwa. It would suggest to me that the Inchoroi influence is pervasive for a long time before inscribing the Tusk.

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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:28 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
- I would just do bullet form myself?
- I didn't realize that these forum's had that level of formatting available ;)?
The button is there in the 'Post a Reply' page, but all it does is add a
  • to the text. The forum software isn't converting it into an actual bulleted list like it should.


EDIT: Never mind. I just screwed it up. Turns out you need to include the list command as well to make the bullets work.

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I'm convinced that the Inchoroi were probably simultaneously interacting with the Eanni as Gods from the Fall, as they interacted with the Nonmen of Earwa. It would suggest to me that the Inchoroi influence is pervasive for a long time before inscribing the Tusk.
Well, that's a perfectly fine alternative view. Personally, I think giving Men the Tusk with its "one devious addition" is enough. I dislike the idea of Inchoroi influence over Men being pervasive. Why can't we humans just fuck things up on our own? :P

If the Inchoroi were already basically controlling the Five Tribes by masquerading as the Gods, why bother compiling their 'native' beliefs into the Tusk in the first place? If the 'Gods' are Inchoroi, why not just keep sending Prophets?

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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:34 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Influence and interaction are two different species, friend.

I'd agree with what Wilshire and I had going, the idea that at least one of the Gods from that age is Inchoroi. Which means, we reflect on Inchoroi whenever we reflect on one or some of the Gods.

While I do think that the Inchoroi kept the Xiuhianni back and dominated them completely as a failsafe (hazarding that there remains a culture pervasively worshiping statues of Inchoroi in Eanna) , I don't think they had pervasive influence over the Tribes-of-the-Tusk. Just that they could be any of the Gods in our experience of the present day myth - reflected from the fiction, of course.

EDIT: What couldn't you do with the Shamanism map? Looks good. I understand the convergence issue. Also, are you only seeking to express human sorcery?

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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:39 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
the idea that at least one of the Gods from that age is Inchoroi.
We don't have any evidence that mortals can become Gods after death, though, do we? If one Inchoroi did manage to figure out how to do that, then would that not be a better method of avoiding damnation than the whole "shutting the World off from the Outside" thing? Eternity as a God sounds much better than mere oblivion. If one or more Inchoroi are living it up in the Outside as Gods, then surely they would oppose such a closing off of the World? In which case, any influence they exerted over the World would be contrary to the aims of the living Inchoroi and the Consult.

Quote
EDIT: What couldn't you do with the Shamanism map? Looks good. I understand the convergence issue. Also, are you only seeking to express human sorcery?
I wanted to show Nonman sorcery on the same map, with the Gnosis as the product of the interaction between Men and Nonmen. But it doesn't appear to be possible to draw a map with multiple 'origin' nodes.

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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:44 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Indeed... Origin nodes and convergence routes. I've always wanted to be part of planning and designing mind-mapping software.

I think something was lost in communicative translation there, Duskweaver.

From the perspective of the Tribes, any Inchoroi interacting with them can only be interpreted as of the Gods. Its the Ancient Aliens/Sufficiently Technological Magic hypotheses pushed to their extremes. This is encapsulated perfectly in the "Tears of God" cultural myth - incidental to how it might actually reflect the metaphysics of Earwa a la Mimara or Aporos perspectives.

I don't believe that the Inchoroi are all of the Kiunnat Gods. I believe that one of them is. So far my money is on Husyelt but that's just a stab in the dark mostly - though, I have more evidence than for that than for it being Ajokli.

Though +1 for uncertainty of mortal ascension - as much as I think that's where the series is going.

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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:49 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
I admit I like the idea of the 'Burnt Prophet' bowing his face into the Inverse Fire at the behest of an Inchoroi and becoming a tool of the Consult.

But... every time (that we've been privvy to) any human who is not of the Consult encounters an Inchoroi, their first reaction is not "this must be a God/Angel!", but "this is an obscene abomination!". If the Inchies resembled beautiful angelic beings, I could easily buy them masquerading as agents of the Divine... but they emphatically don't.

I really want to buy the argument that one or more of the Hundred are either ascended Inchoroi or are based on folk memories of encounters with Inchoroi. But I see more monkey wrenches than actual machinery there at present...

I'm in the same situation as I am with your Anissi-as-Moe's-daughter theory. I'd love it to be true, but the actual evidence all seems to be against rather than for.

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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:54 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Duskweaver
But... every time (that we've been privvy to) any human who is not of the Consult encounters an Inchoroi, their first reaction is not "this must be a God/Angel!", but "this is an obscene abomination!". If the Inchies resembled beautiful angelic beings, I could easily buy them masquerading as agents of the Divine... but they emphatically don't.

If I recall correctly, Shaeonanra reflects on them as Flesh Angels in the False Sun - edit: It's among the notes of that story. While their aspects may be incomprehensible, I'd hazard that their actions and reputations define these perspectives far more, neh? Perception may as well be indistinguishable from interpretation.

Quote from: Duskweaver
I really want to buy the argument that one or more of the Hundred are either ascended Inchoroi or are based on folk memories of encounters with Inchoroi.

...

I'm in the same situation as I am with your Anissi-as-Moe's-daughter theory. I'd love it to be true, but the actual evidence all seems to be against rather than for.

Let there be no ambiguity, I support only the middle assertion in any seriousness, that "one or more of the Hundred ... are based on folk memories of encounters with Inchoroi."

I don't support Inchoroi ascension at all as I feel that would put them at serious odds with what seem their guiding principles. I also only advanced Anissi-as-Moe's-daughter in jest - I think we sufficiently squashed it in our first engagements :).

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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:00 pm »
Quote from: bbaztek
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Duskweaver
But... every time (that we've been privvy to) any human who is not of the Consult encounters an Inchoroi, their first reaction is not "this must be a God/Angel!", but "this is an obscene abomination!". If the Inchies resembled beautiful angelic beings, I could easily buy them masquerading as agents of the Divine... but they emphatically don't.

If I recall correctly, Shaeonanra reflects on them as Flesh Angels in the False Sun - edit: It's among the notes of that story. While their aspects may be incomprehensible, I'd hazard that their actions and reputations define these perspectives far more, neh? Perception may as well be indistinguishable from interpretation.

i dunno madness if some big dick fish angel thing turned water to wine i still wouldn't write earwa's bible on it

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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:05 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: bbaztek
i dunno madness if some big dick fish angel thing turned water to wine i still wouldn't write earwa's bible on it

Depends on the size of the dick. If its so big that you just feel inadequate, probably not. But if its pretty big, but just big enough that you feel like its something you could aspire to achieve, then maybe.

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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:10 pm »
Quote from: bbaztek
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: bbaztek
i dunno madness if some big dick fish angel thing turned water to wine i still wouldn't write earwa's bible on it

Depends on the size of the dick. If its so big that you just feel inadequate, probably not. But if its pretty big, but just big enough that you feel like its something you could aspire to achieve, then maybe.

brb writing a huge post on the prince of nothing series as seen through the lens of freudian psychosexual development

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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:17 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
If I recall correctly, Shaeonanra reflects on them as Flesh Angels in the False Sun - edit: It's among the notes of that story.
That term is also used in The Four Revelations. It's probably a Cunuroi designation (they named Aurang 'Angel of Deceit' and the No-God 'Angel of Endless Hunger' - 'Angel' itself seems to be originally a Cunuroi concept).

Anyway, I would expect the Inchoroi to have conditioned Men (intentionally or otherwise) to identify the Inchoroi's physical appearance with the holy if they had indeed been manipulating Men as you suggest. The Burnt Prophet incident could be an exception, since (AFAIK) there were no other witnesses, so if Angeshrael claimed the being he encountered was Husyelt, it wouldn't matter what the supposed deity actually looked like.

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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:21 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Glamours, bro.  Inchies can look like glowing holy dudes if they want.

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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:26 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Curethan
Glamours, bro.  Inchies can look like glowing holy dudes if they want.
1) Is there any evidence this is even possible?
2) Assuming it's possible, why do we never see the Inchoroi actually do this?

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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:30 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Curethan
Glamours, bro.  Inchies can look like glowing holy dudes if they want.
1) Is there any evidence this is even possible?
2) Assuming it's possible, why do we never see the Inchoroi actually do this?

Much speculation has floated around about this. Esmi's intero-rape session in TDTCB is one that has been debated. I don't know how much hard evidence there is on it though. Mostly speculation, go figure. :P

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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 11:53:36 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 on Esmi's rape being a Glamour and the second time when Aurang visits her again before her Compulsion.

Thanks, Curethan.

Duskweaver, Glamours, for me, are the most difficult sorcery to understand. I can dig Cants (Offensive), Wards (Defensive). I can get sorcerous artifacts, glyphs (sorcerous script rendering objects sorcerous), and circles.