WLW and Kell

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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:04 am »
Quote from: Amun
I have a couple ideas about how Kellhus avoids the WLW.

One, Ajokli is little Kel's secret voice. Since Ajokli can see what the other gods can't, it's possible that he can make himself hidden from the other gods as well. So in a way Ajokli makes little Kel a WLW against Yatwer (other gods too?). Even though the assassin can apparently see the future path he will take, maybe Kel can screw this up by "hiding" where he is blind.

Little Kel is running around the palace and is the closest person to act against the WLW. Plus, if he suspected WLW was going to harm Esmi he would lose it.

The second scenario involves the Daimos. If the gods are only big ciphrang, and if they are demonic, then they can summoned via the Daimos (per Bakker's Q&A interview). During the siege of Dagliash Kellhus uses a sufficiently powerful form of the Daimos and chains Yatwer herself, bringing her into the world. Not only would she be one of the most powerful demons capable of being summoned (I think Dagliash falls very quickly in this scenario), but she is removed from the Outside.

I think the WLW loses the White Luck if there is no one in the Outside to give it to him. Remember, each moment is a gift. While Yatwer becomes Kell's slave, anything goes in Momemn. The WLW either loses his ability to see each and every moment, or what he does see will be wrong.

Can't really imagine any other possibilities at the moment, but those two make sense to me.

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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:11 am »
Quote from: Madness
coobek, I figure that Kellhus can come before the White-Luck, integrate the visions into the his plans. Death, perhaps, is not the end in Earwa?

I feel like the Gods being summoned by some kind of concerted effort by the Anagogic Daimos or Kellhus attempting Gnostic Daimos is pretty likely. However, I've never thought about Kelmomas killing the White-Luck. +1 on that, Amun.

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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:16 am »
Quote from: coobek
WLW was a immense suprise to Maitha though...

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« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:21 am »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Amun
One, Ajokli is little Kel's secret voice.

Samarmas is the secret voice in Kelmomas' head, that was quite obvious in the books.

The implication is that Samarmas' personality was left in his brother's soul (for the want of a better word) while his body was reduced to a mentally-handicapped shell of his actual self, when he was forcibly separated from Kelmomas.

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« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:25 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Given the timeline, unless the WLW finds some big eagles to fly to mordor and drop him in front of Kell, I don't see how he is going to catch up. Even if he jogged nonstop to Dagliash it would take some time. The acquisition of several horses may help, but even still he'd ride many to death  and still take a rather long time to catch up.

I like kelmomas being the anti-whiteluck. Ajokli may have a role to play.

(Kids got siona's blood obviously, though so does the WLW then if Maitha didn't see him).

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« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:30 am »
Quote from: Madness
Lol, Kelmomas' Voice is not so cut and dry, Auriga.

It is something measured... here[/u][/url], actually.

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« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:35 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Amun
One, Ajokli is little Kel's secret voice.

Samarmas is the secret voice in Kelmomas' head, that was quite obvious in the books.

The implication is that Samarmas' personality was left in his brother's soul (for the want of a better word) while his body was reduced to a mentally-handicapped shell of his actual self, when he was forcibly separated from Kelmomas.

Everything in the entire series is obvious if you decide your POV, reading, and interpretation are the only valid one.
Bakker has said that the text is fallible, so nothing, ever, is certain.

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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:41 am »
Quote from: Madness
Lol. I'm fallible :P.

In my opinion, Samarmus is actually a good bet. There's simply much - purposefully - confounding evidence.

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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:45 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Wilshire
Given the timeline, unless the WLW finds some big eagles to fly to mordor and drop him in front of Kell, I don't see how he is going to catch up. Even if he jogged nonstop to Dagliash it would take some time. The acquisition of several horses may help, but even still he'd ride many to death  and still take a rather long time to catch up.

I like kelmomas being the anti-whiteluck. Ajokli may have a role to play.

(Kids got siona's blood obviously, though so does the WLW then if Maitha didn't see him).
My impression from the text is that the WLW is like the villain of Octavia Butler's Wild Seed, able to flit from possessed body to possessed body and thus travel at very high speeds.

I think the text was deliberately very clear about the voice being Samarmis, I think readers are injecting ambiguity because they anticipate and expect and desire ambiguity, thus they confound the clear to make it unclear so that it satisfies their desires and fits the the enchanted frame of unknowableness.

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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:51 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: lockesnow

My impression from the text is that the WLW is like the villain of Octavia Butler's Wild Seed, able to flit from possessed body to possessed body and thus travel at very high speeds.
Thats an interesting thought, havent read Butler but you make me think of the Matrix :P.

Quote from: lockesnow
I think the text was deliberately very clear about the voice being Samarmis, I think readers are injecting ambiguity because they anticipate and expect and desire ambiguity, thus they confound the clear to make it unclear so that it satisfies their desires and fits the the enchanted frame of unknowableness.

Very likely, but absolutes lead to stagnation, or are at least not as interesting to discuss.

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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2013, 12:00:56 am »
Quote from: Madness
+1 lockesnow. I've thought that before too but I don't think that's how the White-Luck Warrior actually expresses agency. He's form-bound, in my opinion.

It's completely possible that Kellhus is preparing Proyas for life without him because Kellhus is going back to Momemn?

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« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2013, 12:01:02 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
It's completely possible that Kellhus is preparing Proyas for life without him because Kellhus is going back to Momemn?

Or too the east to find the rest of the prophecy.

Though it would be kind of silly for him to take off just like he did near the end of TTT only to come back at the last minute to save the day... Or maybe thats what he wants everyone to be waiting for in that last battle. Maybe they will have hope of his return and not flee the field of battle until every last one of them dies for the savior that never was.

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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2013, 12:01:08 am »
Quote from: Madness
I figure he's going to go see the Consult leadership while the Ordeal fights for Dagliash. Or he dies at the end of TUC and the epilogue is him sneaking to Golgotterath or something.

But the Tekne remains my only grip on what is valuable to Kellhus...

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« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2013, 12:01:13 am »
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Madness
I figure he's going to go see the Consult leadership while the Ordeal fights for Dagliash. Or he dies at the end of TUC and the epilogue is him sneaking to Golgotterath or something.

But the Tekne remains my only grip on what is valuable to Kellhus...

The Tekne would be a powerful tool for Kellhus, who we've seen push acquired knowledge to its limits. Imagine what would happen if Kellhus does for the Tekne that which he did for the Gnosis. Could he create his own monstrosities to rival the Wracu or even the No-God itself? I'd love to read about Kellhus convincing the baddies to give up their secrets  :lol:

Ditto for the Aporos, by the way -- if (and that's a big if) that knowledge still exists.

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« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2013, 12:01:33 am »
Quote from: Curethan
I don't understand what Kellhus would need the Tekne for.

Are there some hints to secret desires that he wishes to gratify that I have missed?