WLW and Kell

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« on: May 14, 2013, 11:57:28 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Has anyone else pondered the similarities of the WLW visions and the Dunyain, specifically Kell's, probability trance?

On the one hand you have divine providence, and the other mundane math and statistics. However, they seem to be more or less the same thing.

The WLW sees "what already happened" in the future. But isn't this what Kell sees when he follows the PT? Also consider that the WLW is driven by Yatwer, who inherently cant see the Tekne (if my understanding is correct), more specifically the devices it creates (intellects without souls and all that). If that is true then there may come to a point where the visions of the WLW stop lining up with what is actually happening. At least it should throw a wrench into the gods plan to kill Kell.

Now take Kell. First of all he was a prodigy of the Dunyain. From this I think you can assume he had the potential to become one of the strongest and brightest Dunyain in history. An Einstien even. Given enough time and with all the proper variables, he may be able to see farther, and with much more accuracy, than the gods and their inability to see the Tekne. It would be like Kell never knowing of the consult. No matter how long he followed the PT, he would never 'discern' the TTT (assuming of course that it is something that exists for this discussion). He might even be able to predict the actions of the gods.

I guess another question to consider would be, can the WLW succeed? Is it even possible. Certainly in a 1v1 fight in a room with no entry or exit that could include no interference there is a good chance the WLW could possibly win. However with the Inchi and their devices, as well as all the things they cause that the gods may not see, it seems to me nearly impossible for the WLW to win. To many unseen variables. Or, even assuming that the gods could see all results of the actions of things they cannot see, it is certainly within Kell's considerable power to control at least 1 among the many Consult agents and weapons races (1 creature that is, not a whole race), and use it against the WLW.

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 11:57:34 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
so, AK is essentially, like ali or tyson, gonna unify the belts of the logos, the gnosis, and the tekne in order to whoop WLW ass?  sounds good to me.

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 11:57:39 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
unify the belts like ali lol. glad i figured it all out then.

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 11:57:44 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I'm not so digging on the 'gods only see souls' bit getting in the way. The predictive could see the WLW's sword being notched, and that has no soul.

Though what might be interesting is if by using this predictive method, Yatwer suddenly percieves beings without souls on Earwa. She just didn't look in this way before (with great power comes great tiny mindedness).

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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 11:57:48 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Not gods only see souls. They can certainly see the world humans are standing on. Maithanet says gods cannot perceive intellects without souls. So the prediction things can only cover a realativley finite world, considering the part that the Consult have played for years without the gods knowing. Of course this is assuming that the warrior races have intellect. Its arguable I guess that sranc are little more than beasts (though I personally think they have enough thought power to call 'intellect'), but skin-spys certainly have some amount of intelligence.

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 11:57:53 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Sranc have language, (crude) politics, limited tech, and will of their own. They're certainly intelligent.

The Gods can perceive the world through the actions of ensouled beings. But if they cannot perceive the actions of an intellect without a soul then the consequences of their actions will disrupt their predictive power.

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 11:57:59 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: The Sharmat
Sranc have language, (crude) politics, limited tech, and will of their own. They're certainly intelligent.

The Gods can perceive the world through the actions of ensouled beings. But if they cannot perceive the actions of an intellect without a soul then the consequences of their actions will disrupt their predictive power.

Which makes their response a feedback loop at best. Reactionary only. Sure they could see a bit whirlwind, but certainly not lone sranc, or skin-spys. Who knows, the consult may know of the WLW and decide they dont like it, too much of an unknown, and just kill him with a skin spy. Yatwer would certainly be confused why her unstoppable killing machine died suddenly, but thats her problem.

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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:04 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Wilshire
Not gods only see souls.
Then how do they see the notch on a sword?

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:09 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Wilshire
Not gods only see souls.
Then how do they see the notch on a sword?

Did you read that whole post or just the first 5 words? Sorry the first sentence was confusing, but as the rest of the post indicates, I never intended to suggest that gods cannot see anything but souls. Refer to the sentence directly following the quoted one: "Gods can certainly see the world humans are standing in".

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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:14 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Then how do they see the notch on a sword?
I interpreted it as they can also see anything a human has ever or will ever interact with. A man beheaded doesn't just suddenly fall apart to the perception of a God. A God would see the headsman and the axe as well.

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:19 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Wilshire
Not gods only see souls.
Then how do they see the notch on a sword?

Did you read that whole post or just the first 5 words? Sorry the first sentence was confusing, but as the rest of the post indicates, I never intended to suggest that gods cannot see anything but souls. Refer to the sentence directly following the quoted one: "Gods can certainly see the world humans are standing in".
I'm stuck - did your post argue with mine or not? If it argues, you have claims of finite perception hinging around souls, yet I'm saying the WLW predictive can see right down to the notch on a sword. I already noted the idea of the gods being lazy in their perception and if they actually looked via the predictive lens, they might find the consult glaringly existant.

Quote
I interpreted it as they can also see anything a human has ever or will ever interact with. A man beheaded doesn't just suddenly fall apart to the perception of a God. A God would see the headsman and the axe as well.
Who knows their sword will fall apart from a flaw just at the right time?

If you don't know, how is that interaction?

To me it seems to be raw data reading, instead of reading the narrative connectionism of headsman and victim (which can be an entirely flawed narrative - say the victim percieves the headsman as his killer, yet someone else runs up and chops off his head? The narrative connectionism is false in such a case).

I mean seriously, ten years without babies and the gods can't see. Seems some room to humour simple perceptual failure.

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:24 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Who knows their sword will fall apart from a flaw just at the right time?
The WLW knows that's going to happen because it already happened to him.

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:30 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
All im saying is that what the WLW 'sees' is just as flawed as what everyone else sees based on the limitations of the gods.

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:35 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Who knows their sword will fall apart from a flaw just at the right time?
The WLW knows that's going to happen because it already happened to him.
Are you saying the rendering point of the universe has actually moved on well past these events (Yatwer somehow messes with what has already been stiched into the loom)? Or somehow the universe doesn't need the prior moment to render the next moment? Otherwise if the universe does have to render A before it can render B and hasn't rendered it yet, it hasn't happened to him - it's a predictive.

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:40 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Predictive as long as time flows in a straight line. If time branches, forks, and splinters into different paths, alternate realities if you will, then the gods 'may' not be able to follow each one. The the gods see and exist in a time/place without a no-god, where they see and know everything. We know this is not the truth. So they are wandering around with blindfolds on, unaware that they are unaware, in a time/space that is moving on without them. The things they 'know' and 'see' are vastly irreverent because its from a time/space that no longer exists and cannot therefore hold absolute meaning. They can be be near to the mark for a time, but eventually as time moves on, they will become farther and farther away from reality and only understand when it is much to late that they are just as blind as the ones that worship them.

Thats the possibility im considering. Its like the whole Moe thing. Either you choose to believe that he (or the gods) are omnipotent and we've been deluded to believe otherwise, or you believe that he (or the gods) was the deluded one and the world has moved on.