Cishaurim

  • 224 Replies
  • 52603 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2013, 12:11:36 am »
Quote from: sciborg2
The Tusk added a call to kill the Nonmen, but did it add the damnation of Sorcerers?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2013, 12:11:41 am »
Quote from: Madness
Thanks for catching that. Definitely retracted.

Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
When the Inchoroi began using Men to master the Aporos and produce the first Chorae, they gave the first sorcery-destroying spheres to the Sranc, only to discover that the creatures were far too reckless. Having fixed and morbid habits of ornamentation, the Sranc rarely valued the spheres, and were thus prone to lose them.

So the Inchoroi began giving them to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’

The Nonmen only rebuilt and reinforced the Gates after the first great migratory invasions generations later.

That's from Pat's Interview.

You know though... I wouldn't put it past Bakker...

Edit: I believe Bakker made a mistake in this interview. TTT Glossary does say that Nonmen produce the first Chorae for the Inchoroi, right?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2013, 12:11:47 am »
Quote from: Octavian
@Madness

Yep, it says something along the lines of how they turned to the Nonmen users of the Aporos to make the Chorae because they knew they were shunned. Then they used the the first Chorae at the Black Furnace Plain.

ETA
I'm not certain a mistake was made however, I think he was saying that as of that time the Nonmen had turned to Men to make them instead of Nonmen. Maybe all of the Nonmen Aporos Sorcerers had been killed of by then for their betrayals, or maybe they just needed more made and Men were easy labor.

The Breaking of the Gates happened way after the first Chorae were made.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2013, 12:11:52 am »
Quote from: Curethan
The nonmen knew that sorcery caused damnation before the inchies.  The glossary further explains that certain types of sorcery (like the aporos) were proscribed.
Regarding Moe and his snakes in Kellhus' interveiw, I believe he wasn't wearing them because he had them positioned around the groto for surveilence.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2013, 12:11:57 am »
Quote from: Madness
I need to go back and read some of that Glossary again. It was a serious slip on my part.

Though, I'll obviously have that framework dogging my perspective for awhile.

This makes me wonder about Titirga and the Inward.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2013, 12:14:44 am »
Quote from: SkiesOfAzel
I believe that Earwa follows many Gnosticism principals. Thus I think that the Cishaurim blind their persons to separate themselves from the imperfect physical world and better see the ideal world. To be more precise I think that we have a case of Mitigated Duality, with the Solitary God (which I believe is also the Mystery that the NonMen worshiped) been the Godhead, the God of Gods in the role of the demiurge and the Gods(Cyfrang) in the roles of Archons. In Mitigated Duality, the demiurge is usually believed to be corrupt/evil like the world he created, and the Godhead represents goodness. In this light, Cishaurim are agents of God’s will and that’s why they aren’t damned.

  A thought that just came into my mind is that since the Scylvendi also believe that the world is a lie and they worship the No-God, maybe he is connected to the Godhead somehow.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2013, 12:14:49 am »
Quote from: Madness
In light of Meppa is X speculation, I thought I'd explore some old threads again. Plus, it is neat to see the forum growing and its pedigree.

I, too, have wondered about the connection between Gnosticism and Earwa, SOA. Bakker has been approached by many individuals over the year who seem to think he's hit gold on certain occult metaphors as well - claims he has distanced himself from.

Also, certain posts by Octavian, Sharmat, and Sideris early in this thread remind me of a particular discrepancy in the series.

Any Schoolman, or secular perspective in the know, who provides us perspective on Cishaurim seem to universally acknowledge Mallahet's reputation of power and status. Based on social and cultural interaction among the Three Seas for... 20ish years, at least, solidifying this notoriety. Yet we're supposed to go along with Kellhus' interpretation of the Cishaurim as correct simply because Moenghus doesn't contradict him when Kellhus recounts his inferences to his Father?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2013, 12:14:54 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
I think so. Just because Kellhus isn't blind doesn't me he can't see farther.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2013, 12:14:59 am »
Quote from: Madness
Kellhus has no direct evidence of Moenghus' sorcerous ability, neh?

In fact, if we ignored only Kellhus' perspective in this instance, blotted that aspect in the mind mapping of ideas, all other evidence suggests Moenghus is all-powerful among the Cishaurim.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2013, 12:15:03 am »
Quote from: Curethan
Lol.  Maybe it goes deeper.  Mallahet is a powerful Cish and Moenghus is the sneaky weakling that Kellhus postulates... but they are never seen in the same place ;)

(i.e. he was playing dual roles)

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2013, 12:15:08 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Moe's self description as told to Kell is too convincing me to think he is something other. I just can't see it.
Perhaps I've too much sight to see.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2013, 12:15:13 am »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion...

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
We do get an interior glimpse into the Fanim world in The Aspect-Emperor, Tattooed Hand. Like I say, in the historical narrative sections, I resort to quasi-racist cliches and types, both heroic and otherwise, trying to mix up assumptions, and to indirectly show how arbitrary and self-serving they actually are, even if they seem 'fair and balanced' to those sharing the selfsame prejudices.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004
They're almost as fatal to the Cishaurim as well, though the mechanics differ. The Inrithi would be in a whole heap of trouble otherwise.

I've actually structured the different sorceries of Earwa along the lines of different philosophical theories of language. For the Cishaurim, it's the THOUGHT, and not the utterance that is key, as it is in traditional sorcery. The Chorae are each inscribed with metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2013, 12:15:19 am »
Quote from: Curethan
First quote reveals the plot hole regarding skin spies, Moe and the Cish.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2013, 12:15:24 am »
Quote from: Madness
Well, we don't have actually have reason to believe that Kellhus is right when he infers that Moenghus the Elder recognized the skin-spies through vocal discrepancies.

It could simply be, as others have suggested, that the Consult never successfully infiltrated Fanim Kian. Fane, Third Sight, Skin-spies, all recent innovations as far the Earwa goes. It's likely neither Kellhus nor the Consult had any reason to assume that the Cishaurim could see souls.

Perhaps, when the Cishaurim find the Skin-Spies with Moenghus, is also the first time the Consult attempted infiltration.

You know, its interesting but much of PON turns on the Consult and Kellhus not understanding the Cishaurim. Kellhus might have explained some of their sorceries' metaphysics but how could he assume the requisite dividends? The Consult couldn't probably even have guessed.

I never like doing this explaining for an author but the whole Cishaurim remain to be borne out, I'm sure.

Honestly, my favorite quote of all the ones I discovered is this gem about Anarcane Ground & God's Song - I put it in Sorcery[/b]: "One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible."

Reminds me of the analogy Feanor brought up about the Music in Tolkien's work... This is the first and only place I've ever seen God's Song as a Pronoun :shock: .

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2013, 12:15:31 am »
Quote from: Curethan
The Consult's info on the Cish discovering their skin spies lines up with Moe joining their ranks.
The Cish have been around for hundreds of years before that.
And he has those two held prisoner under Kudyea at the end of TTT.
Aurang reflects on how precious their stocks of skin spies are, I doubt they would just keep sending them in if all Cish could spot em easy peasy.