Cishaurim

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #210 on: August 04, 2015, 02:31:39 pm »
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They walked to elude the companies of crossbowmen they Knew the Inrihi kept behind their lines, armed with the Tears of God. Not one among their number could be risked, not with the Scarlet Spires girding for war-not for any reason. THey were Cishaurim, Indara's Waterbearers, and their breath was more precious then the breath of thousands. They were oasis among men.

Also in the battle geoffrobro mentioned was this:
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Then a lone rider, a young adept, swept up to one of the sorcerer-priests – and took his head. When the nearest turned his sockets to regard him, only the boy's horse erupted in flame. The young knight tumbled and continued running, his cries shrill, his dead father's Chorae bound to the palm of his hand.
Only then did the Cishaurim realize their mistake – their arrogance.

My bold.  Only then did they realize someone with a Chorae had come among them.  Could be read in such a way as to confirm they cannot see Chorae.

A different part of TTT, in Shimeh again:
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Gasping, Eleazaras glimpsed the giant Yalgrota, soot-blackened and blood-smeared, heaving Fanfarokar into the air by the throat.  The asps flailed. Fist closed about a Chorae, the Thunyeri giant hammered the shaven skull into sopping ruin.

Remember in TJE when Akka was punched in the face by the sranc holding a chorae...  a section of his cheek salted. Fanfarokar (who was a Cish Primary, so very powerful) did not salt when Yalgrota went to work.  Again with the water descriptive 'sopping.'  Even with Yalgrota pounding him to mush, Fanfarokar still would have salted if in fact Cish salt, which it seems they don't.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #211 on: August 04, 2015, 02:45:15 pm »
I dont think so. If it were a Bashrag with a chorae and not a sranc, I imagine Akka would be a sodden mess as well (btw I edited my previous post with a link to this discussion in another thread).  Akka's cheek had some residual flakes of salt. If you add a hand thats probably double in thickness to surround the chorae, my bet is that there would be no salting at all. Recall that the salting only occurs when the chorae is extremely close. A think hand, imo, is enough of a barrier.

I'll note that the nature and effectiveness of chroae are inconsistent at best, and we only have a close POV of the de minimus effects from Akka, and no real distances are ever measurable. We are talking about the difference in centimeters and there is just no information.
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rnblut

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« Reply #212 on: August 04, 2015, 03:09:16 pm »
Well I stand corrected on the Cish salting.  Thanks. 
Regarding the Chorae, I don't think we have an adequate explanation why it would work on both Cish and Sorcerers.  The chorae may be anti-magic, but as a tear of god they appear to be mostly anti-sorcerer (who are damned).  If Cish are clerical and act (I don't remember the precise wording) with the god then they should not be affected at all by chorae.  Let me know if this has been covered elsewhere int he forum.

MSJ

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« Reply #213 on: August 04, 2015, 03:34:57 pm »
I just remember reading the older threads over at Westeros before I started posting and they had went over in detail all of the times the Cish were hit with chorae. And they never salted, more like poof their gone. That's what I recall. And I'm sure there is discussions on the board here about it.


ETA:sorry Wilshire, didn't see your link
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 04:49:55 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #214 on: August 04, 2015, 03:41:45 pm »
:-\ dammit. page 387 of TTT
Moenghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flashed from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiir thought, it seemed the God watched him though a mans skull.
What do you see?

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of was had possesses them.

UM did The No-God look through Moes eyes. Cnaiir believes his god is dead, The No-God is the Scylvendi God, right?

Now that sir is very interesting! Also no mention of salting neither. I seem to remember the consensus that the Cish kinda flash out of existence.

Geoffrobro, this interests me about Cnaüir seeing his god, ergo the No-God. And I've been thinking on it and the only thing that hangs this up, is that The Consult was initially warring with The Cishaurim, right? The Cish were uncovering their skin-spies and they wanted them destroyed. Maybe its just as simple as Cnaüir seen the God and realized that. Maybe it had nothing to do with the No-God, but man it interesting. My head is swimming over the idea of it.

Oh, and hell, I'm ignoring one of your best points. Moe's eyes flashed with white.....huh. That's never been described in relation with the Psukhe. Man, I need to go digging here.

You know, with the eyes lighting up and Moe being described as a corpse, it almost as if he isn't a Cishaurim. He truly isn't a Cishaurim because he doesn't have the passion/faith in order to bear the Water. He even says that he could only do rudimentary things with the Psukhe. And that's why he needed Cnaüir. There's definitely more here, just need to flesh it out
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 04:54:23 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #215 on: August 04, 2015, 07:08:06 pm »
Well I stand corrected on the Cish salting.  Thanks. 
Regarding the Chorae, I don't think we have an adequate explanation why it would work on both Cish and Sorcerers.  The chorae may be anti-magic, but as a tear of god they appear to be mostly anti-sorcerer (who are damned).  If Cish are clerical and act (I don't remember the precise wording) with the god then they should not be affected at all by chorae.  Let me know if this has been covered elsewhere int he forum.


I'll try to keep this tied tot eh Cish so I don't put my foot in my mouth ;).

I agree that IF the Cish are Holy and IF the chorae work via some damnation channel, then it wouldnt make sense that they destroy all sorcerers. However, since we know that the Cish are effected by the chorae and that their works are affected the same way as other sorcery, can can conclude that: Either the Cish and their works are not Holy or that the Chorae do not work via some damnnation mechanism.

It is my belief that the Fanim and their clerics, the Cishaurim, have/had a more accurate belief system, meaning they worship something closer to what the actual nature of the outside is... Or at least there is some truth in their Solitary God and the belief that the Cish are holy because they work magic without a mark. Because of this, I would then rule out my first explanation above, and conclude that the chorae must work through some means other than damnation/redemption. I'll further go on to say that sorcery itself is not a damned thing, and therefore the Mark that the practitioners bare, is indication of damnation.

So the Mark, chorae machinations, and the nature/divinity of the Psukhe , while intertwined, do not necessarily all have the same explanation. This would help explain why there is a lot of conflicting information, a knot tied with several different pieces of rope.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

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« Reply #216 on: August 04, 2015, 08:56:39 pm »
Either the Cish and their works are not Holy or that the Chorae do not work via some damnnation mechanism.

I actually think that both of these things are not true.

I do not buy the Psukhe as divine, nor Water as divine either.  If Moe can use it, if Titurga could use it, I do not believe that Water is divine, or given from the divine.  In fact, I am inclined to believe the opposite, that Fane didn't find Water through the Solitary God, but that he found the Solitary God through Water.  While Fane didn't create Water, he did create the Solitary God.

I think that the Chorae are paradoxes that unravel paradox, which of course is a paradox, which makes perfect sense, in the sense that it makes no sense at all.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Triskele

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« Reply #217 on: August 07, 2015, 07:15:23 pm »
I am damn curious if we'll ever get more of an explanation of how Fane discovered the Water.  I'm curious about the "how" in contrast to the how of the Quyan sorcery the origins of which seem more like learning about physics. 

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #218 on: August 25, 2015, 12:18:33 am »
All that said, its probably best to move the discussion of Chorae to another thread, or a new thread, but not here, as this topic is for Cisharuim.
Chorae topic: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1005.105
Feel free to make your own as well.
See you there!

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #219 on: October 13, 2015, 02:04:07 pm »
can't remember if we covered this--that old blind man who accosted Kellhus, maybe he walked the Cishaurim version of the Shadow Way?

and who knows?  maybe that fucker was Seokti or even Moe in like a false body or something.  maybe Cishaurim have the ability to animate/possess any blind person anywhere

CISHAURIM SYNTHESE

H

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« Reply #220 on: October 13, 2015, 05:20:37 pm »
can't remember if we covered this--that old blind man who accosted Kellhus, maybe he walked the Cishaurim version of the Shadow Way?

and who knows?  maybe that fucker was Seokti or even Moe in like a false body or something.  maybe Cishaurim have the ability to animate/possess any blind person anywhere

CISHAURIM SYNTHESE

I always thought that the Old Man was Moe, telling him where he was hiding...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

geoffrobro

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« Reply #221 on: May 28, 2016, 05:17:37 pm »
How do the cish fly/walk on air. Isn't that a spell that cause damnation or a mark? It's a spell all the schools use
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #222 on: May 28, 2016, 06:26:25 pm »
As far as we know, the Psukhe is a form of sorcery, in effect allowing the Cishaurim to achieve similar effects as the Anagogic and Gnostic Schools, including 'walking the skies.'  So, as far as damnation goes, it's part of their metaphysics that they aren't marked, just like any other use of the Psukhe.

However, you bring up an interesting point I've had some thoughts about.  In TWP, when the Cishaurim is approaching Kellhus on the rooftop, he is described as kind of zig-zagging through the streets, with his toes pointed down.  No mention of walking the sky like other sorcerers, and the description doesn't mention walking, striding, stepping, etc.  Almost like he was actually flying, which is supposed to be impossible, as other sorceries allow them to only walk the echo of the earth in the sky.  So, do Cishaurim actually fly?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #223 on: May 31, 2016, 04:10:53 pm »
Maybe the water allows them to float ;)
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #224 on: May 31, 2016, 04:12:34 pm »
Maybe the water allows them to float ;)

Touché!
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