Bakker and Tolkien

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Madness

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« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2016, 12:12:55 am »
...

Great post, Parsh.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse :).
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Parsh

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« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2016, 12:15:28 am »
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Great post, Parsh.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse :).

Thanks and thanks. I made my way here by way of the podcast, by way of the Facebook group, by way of the Grimdark Facebook group.

Once, long ago, I tried to register on the Three Seas forum, but I never got approved and wandered away, disconsolate.

Madness

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« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2016, 12:19:09 am »
Awesome journey here 8)!

Yeah... the Three-Seas forum languished there, in the in-between, for a number of years because there were no active mods/admins.
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Parsh

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« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2016, 01:10:30 am »
Awesome journey here 8)!

Yeah... the Three-Seas forum languished there, in the in-between, for a number of years because there were no active mods/admins.

Yeah, anarchy's nice in theory, but at the end of the day, someone's got to be the Aspect-Emperor if you want anything to get done.

Madness

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« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2016, 02:47:28 pm »
Awesome journey here 8)!

Yeah... the Three-Seas forum languished there, in the in-between, for a number of years because there were no active mods/admins.

Yeah, anarchy's nice in theory, but at the end of the day, someone's got to be the Aspect-Emperor if you want anything to get done.

Lol - appreciate the sentiment.
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carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
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Callan S.

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« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2016, 06:40:02 pm »
Awesome journey here 8)!

Yeah... the Three-Seas forum languished there, in the in-between, for a number of years because there were no active mods/admins.

Yeah, anarchy's nice in theory, but at the end of the day, someone's got to be the Aspect-Emperor if you want anything to get done.

I think more that some poster will try to become an authority themselves, eventually. Usually not a moderate one.

Wilshire

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« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2016, 06:33:37 pm »
I think the admin/mods here try to be moderate. Let us know if we are otherwise :) .
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Bolivar

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« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2016, 02:33:04 am »
I've been meaning to write this for quite some time but I kept putting it off because I knew it would be a long one. As I mentioned in the reading thread, I capped off our Second Apocalypse reread by going through Lord of the Rings again, in the time leading up to The Great Ordeal. After reading the two in such close proximity, I have to agree with Parsh that the differences come across more than the similarities. I've seen a lot of criticism that TSA is arguably too derivative of Dune and LotR but I've come to believe the series genuinely stands on its own - there's just too many scenes, characters, and themes that simply couldn't exist in Herbert's or Tolkien's writings. That said, I think Bakker ultimately uses the same narrative frame as LotR: an internal moral struggle set against the backdrop of a fantasy apocalypse.

Much like The Second Apocalypse, the Lord of the Rings is fundamentally about the conflict between meaning and nothing.

I think it's a misconception that the legions of Mordor are the primary antagonists - evil resolves itself in Tolkien's world with its fractious, self-deating narcissism. Although Sauron is the titular character of the trilogy, he never once physically enters the narrative. Similar to how many theologians view the devil, he isn't a material personification of evil but rather he exists as rationalization, the way we trick ourselves into pursuing our own interests at the expense of others. There are several key plot points upon which the fate of the world truly hinges and it isn't the climactic battles but rather the struggle within the ranks of the protagonists. Tolkien time and again returns to a technique wherein he places characters at moral crossroads and they visualize the consequences of their actions. Whenever this happens, it's a red flag for the reader as to what's really going on and it reveals itself in these key events:

1. In the barrow downs, where Frodo is the only Hobbit who awakens and he considers escaping to save himself and doom his friends to the wights.
2. In Lothlorien, where Frodo offers the ring to Galdriel and she sees herself becoming the Queen of Middle Earth.
3. At the hills/waters of Parth Galen and Amon Hen, where Boromir tries to take the ring from Frodo, becoming a powerful king in his own right.
4. Twice at Isengard, first when Saruman reveals his alliance with Sauron and again when he entreats Gandalf to come into the tower so they can discuss how to set the world to rights.
5. All throughout the Minas Tirith arc, where Denethor refuses the counsel of his allies and eventually resolves to euthanize himself and his son.
6. The series climax inside of Mt. Doom, where Frodo ultimately fails the quest and resolves to keep the ring for himself.
7. Throughout the entire narrative, when the Shire Hobbits, Wizards, Elves, Ents, Rohirrim, and undead army are reluctant to confront Sauron and Saruman out of their own mistrust for eachother.

At each of these junctures, the characters resolve to take matters into their own hands, under the rationale that what they are doing is somehow earned, righteous, just, in the interest of the greater good, or otherwise the only reasonable course of action. While all of these motives masquerade under the guise of meaning, purpose, and reason, the reader in fact knows these are empty rationalizations covering their pure, base, and animalistic impulse. Tolkien is intentionally invoking the nihilistic implications of Bentham's Calculus, Freud's Pleasure Principle, Nietzche's Will to Power, and Darwin's Survival of the Fittest. In Bakker's terms, it's the biological mechanism which often attenuates his Blind Brain Theory.

Tolkien explicitly uses the same words when describing the Eye of Sauron and the Windows of Minas Morgul as Bakker does to describe the Consult and its skin spies - a gaze into oblivion, nothingness and void. While Tolkien vehmently denied his works were an allegory for World War II, I personally believe they were at least a subconscious parallel to his experience in World War I, where grand boasts of nationalism and ideology were in fact a mask for the last gasp of imperialism. Much like the fractious Orcs of Mordor, WWI was a self-defeating venture, as it ultimately triggered the collapse of every participant's government and directly led to the decolonization of the third world.

Quote
The tracks between whim and brutality are many and inscrutable in Men, and though they often seem to cut across the impassable terrain of reason, in truth, it is reason that paves their way. Ever do Men argue from want to need and from need to fortuitous warrant. Ever do they think their cause the just cause. Like cats chasing sunlight thrown from a mirror, they never tire of their own delusions.

^ This is the opening to the first chapter of The Judging Eye and I believe it encapsulates what TSA and LotR are truly about.

TLDR:

Christopher Tolkien once explained that his father was writing about the evil of what he called "the machine," the way people execute their will over nature and each other. So to bring it all together, I believe Tolkien was warning us about the morally destructive consequences of mechanized civilization in the 20th century and that Bakker took up his watch against the same threat as we embark on posthumanism in the 21st century. However, The Lord of the Rings ultimately argues that morality is in fact real, that there is more to humanity than self-interest and biological function. At this point, I'm not sure we'll get the same hopeful conclusion to The Second Apocalypse. Even if we don't, I nevertheless hold that Bakker has already succeeded, and will continue to succeed, in providing insights into ourselves as we continue on the perilous path technology has laid out for human civilization.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 02:56:24 am by Bolivar »

Callan S.

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« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2016, 03:06:06 am »
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At each of these junctures, the characters resolve to take matters into their own hands

So what were they doing before those moments?

Going with some overall flow?

Maybe it's anti individualistic?

Always an ironic position for the lone author to take

Bolivar

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« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2016, 04:13:58 pm »


Quote
At each of these junctures, the characters resolve to take matters into their own hands

So what were they doing before those moments?

Going with some overall flow?

Maybe it's anti individualistic?

Always an ironic position for the lone author to take

"Taking matters into their own hands" was probably a bad choice of phrase. It's not necesarily anti-individualistic because they aren't expressing any kind of individualism at all - they're merely rationalizing their submission to base impulses, to advance their self-interest at the expense of others. In terms of the Second Apocalypse, it exposes the illusion of selfhood, because they are merely a machine reacting to circumstance and opportunity. This is why Tolkien describes Sauron and his surrogates as nothingness and explicitly distinguishes them from the simplicity of pure evil.

Callan S.

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« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2016, 11:58:10 pm »
Quote
they're merely rationalizing their submission to base impulses, to advance their self-interest at the expense of others.

So you're saying it's not individualism if it's in self interest and at the expense of others?

Or are you trying to say individualism is a superstitious term? Still seems valid to me, in as much as it's derived from 'individual' and clearly when the news reports yet another horrible car crash where someone died, I didn't die and as much we were individual from each other.

To me it seems more like Boromir is not being treated as enacting individualism because he went against the tribe. Went against the flow.

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« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2016, 06:10:47 pm »
Bolivar, that was a great post. Thanks for taking the time! Is there anything in there specifically you'd like to discuss? I'm not sure there's much for me to deconstruct without some guidance ;) .
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Bolivar

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« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2016, 08:05:20 pm »
Thanks Wilshire!

I kinda put it all out there so I'm not sure if there's anything specific I'd want to focus on. It all actually reads like an incoherent mess now that I've come back to it after a few months so maybe some revising is in order.