Schools, their numbers and resources

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« on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:05 am »
Quote from: generic
I recently skimmed the books in search for exact numbers of Schoolmen. I probably missed a lot so help is welcome.

1st HW:

The only School that gets an explicit count in the TTT appendix is the Mandate. They typically consist of fifty to sixty sorcerers of rank (SoR) and about twice that of initiates. It is also mentioned that those numbers are typical for a minor School.

The Scarlet Spires are the most powerful School so there should be considerable more of them. 74 sorcerers of rank participated in the siege of Shimeh. They lost 15 SoR to the desert and the plague(Wp ch23). 2 while capturing DA. 6 more in the Battle of Anwurat. At least three of unkown rank in Caraskand. Six Schoolman when DA broke out 3 of them SoR. All in all I'd say there were no more than 150 SoR in total.

The Mysunsai are probably the largest School according to the appendix.

The Saik are still considered a major School. Presumably there are more than 60 then?

GO

Swayali: At the first Battle of the Horde 43 are kept in reserve and about "200 lights" are deployed. No distinction between SoR and Initiates are mentioned. They use the Gnosis.

The combined number of Mandate and Vokalati is given as more than 300 SoR and some 200 understudies before the 2. Battle of the Horde.

Edit: Fixed blatant mistakes re DA vs SS, added Anwurat

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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:12 am »
Quote from: Sideris
As I recall, Achamian killed nine SoR in TWP.

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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:17 am »
Quote from: sologdin
not sure about the numbers y'all have for DA v. spires:

(click to show/hide)
(II.19 (2005) at 424).

(click to show/hide)
(II.23 at 527).

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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:22 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Sologdin, just in case you where unsure, this section is not one where spoiler tags have been used much.

Also, I do believe that Achamian lets us know the exact number  that the scarlet spires has. Unfortunatly I dont remember if it was in TWP or TTT. I seem to remember something between 1 and 2 hundred scorcers (of rank or otherwise).

Also the Mandate (and so presumably other schools) have more ranking systems other than just 'sorcerers of rank'. In the library scene (I think) Akka refers to himself as a "war-cant master". This leads me to believe that the number of 'ranked' scorcerers could be like counting the number of officers in an army. Sure there are a lot less officers, but if you killed a couple generals the rest would fall apart (the head of a snake and all that). There is the matter of how those ranks between schools stack up. Its like collecting baseball cards, where 90% of the value is in 10% of the cards. Same with the few. Each 'rank' is probably a pretty significant step, especially when you consider the amount of knowledge, the purity of meaning, and many other factors contributing to strength.

If you look at TFS you can see that although the two sorcerers there (sorry forget names) have vastly different "power levels", even though they both have the gnosis and they are both at similar 'ranks' in their respective schools.

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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:29 am »
Quote from: Sideris
I'm recalling something Eli was thinking on in TTT, I believe. Perhaps late TWP. I'll find it later.

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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:34 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Wilshire
Also the Mandate (and so presumably other schools) have more ranking systems other than just 'sorcerers of rank'. In the library scene (I think) Akka refers to himself as a "war-cant master".

Pretty much just correcting my post since I remembered typing this out months ago and just recently re-read the library scene.

In the section with the Sareotic Library (page 271 WP, paperback) Akka says about himself: "He was a Mandate Schoolman, a Gnostic Sorcerer-of-the-Rank", a "War-Cant Master".
my bold.

Reasons for the bold:
"The" was left out of my original thing I said, and I think this could be an important distinction, or at least then copuled with the capital R in rank. This seems to imply "the Rank" is a further line of distinction within the Mandati order, as opposed to "the rank" being some kind of sweeping statement that pretty much just says that you arn't an acolyte.


Also I found it interesting that as he starts to realize that he doesn't have a chance he thinks "He was a Scion of Seswatha, a Disciple of Noshainrou the White. He was the slayer of Skafra, mightiest of the Wraku. He had pitched his song against the dread heights of Golgotterath. He had stood proud and impenitent before Mog-Pharau himself..."
Akka slips so easily into the guise of Seswatha.


And just to spread the wealth a bit from other threads to make it easier for people to find specific information:

stuff from me, on TUC exerpt thread.
Quote
Since I didn't know where else to post this: there is a passage in WLW, the first large battle, when Kayutas sends out the Witches. A description of how many.

"At her brother's command, Serwa deployued her witches behind the common line, holding forty-three of the most senior and accomplished in reserve" ... "They climbed out beyond the common line, a second chevron, like a mathematical apparition of the first, two hundred lights flung into the blackness of the plain" ... "Bars of heaven, lines of blinding white rising from the wasted ground to shrouded sky, some two hundred of them"

Anyone recall how many Mandate there were during the first trillogy? I know it was explicitly stated how many Spires schoolmen there were, but I cannot remember if they said exacly how many Mandate. I thought it was around 100 but I could be wrong.

If Kellhus could train a school from 0 to 200 gnostic users during his reign, I wonder how large he could have grown the Mandate in that time? Especially considering that the Sisterhood and the Mandate would not be competing for members.?
and a response from Madness later on
Quote
"And so the number of the Kites flown by the Army of the South was doubled. More than three hundred sorcerers of rank and some two hundred more understudies now strode through the sepulchral clouds above the Horde" (WLW, p706).

This includes the Schools of Vokalati and the Mandate.

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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:40 am »
Quote from: Triskele
Cishaurim:  1

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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:44 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Triskele
Cishaurim:  1
lmao

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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:49 am »
Quote from: geoint
Quote from: Wilshire
Sologdin, just in case you where unsure, this section is not one where spoiler tags have been used much.

Also, I do believe that Achamian lets us know the exact number  that the scarlet spires has. Unfortunatly I dont remember if it was in TWP or TTT. I seem to remember something between 1 and 2 hundred scorcers (of rank or otherwise).

Also the Mandate (and so presumably other schools) have more ranking systems other than just 'sorcerers of rank'. In the library scene (I think) Akka refers to himself as a "war-cant master". This leads me to believe that the number of 'ranked' scorcerers could be like counting the number of officers in an army. Sure there are a lot less officers, but if you killed a couple generals the rest would fall apart (the head of a snake and all that). There is the matter of how those ranks between schools stack up. Its like collecting baseball cards, where 90% of the value is in 10% of the cards. Same with the few. Each 'rank' is probably a pretty significant step, especially when you consider the amount of knowledge, the purity of meaning, and many other factors contributing to strength.

If you look at TFS you can see that although the two sorcerers there (sorry forget names) have vastly different "power levels", even though they both have the gnosis and they are both at similar 'ranks' in their respective schools.
Losing EVERY General in the Army would not do anything except save taxpayers a TON of money.  Overpaid to do a whole lot of nothing. 

With that said, my impression of how the schools work is you actually have to be good at what you do to get promoted (as opposed to playing politics and having a good haircut like our modern military).  So ya a SoR is probably actually important for his school.  A General in the US Army just does admin.  (And I guarantee you they delegate 99% of everything to their Sergeants Major and civilians)

The days of Julius Caesar or George Washington are long gone.  The Army is too bureaucratic for most soldiers to care.

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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:55 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
even a few hundred seems too many. I guess almost all the Mandati stay cloistered on Atyersus?

Otherwise why have only one spy with the holy war?  Where was the spy in Momemn for Achamian to reconnoiter with?  Where was the spy in Sumna for Achamian to reconnoiter with?  Where was the spy in Shimeh for Achamian to reconnoiter with?  Achamian was the spy in Carythusal and apparently the Mandate had no other eyes, no other ears in all the world.   No wonder a Skin Spy was watching Achamian in Carythusal, he was the only active Mandate sorcerer in the three seas. ;)

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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2013, 12:54:00 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: geoint
Losing EVERY General in the Army would not do anything except save taxpayers a TON of money.  Overpaid to do a whole lot of nothing. 

With that said, my impression of how the schools work is you actually have to be good at what you do to get promoted (as opposed to playing politics and having a good haircut like our modern military).  So ya a SoR is probably actually important for his school.  A General in the US Army just does admin.  (And I guarantee you they delegate 99% of everything to their Sergeants Major and civilians)

The days of Julius Caesar or George Washington are long gone.  The Army is too bureaucratic for most soldiers to care.

I venture to say you are right, though I know nothing about our Army but if its anything like the gov't I'm sure its just as awesome -_-

Anyways, yeah I'd imagine that the ranks are important. I don't expect that the members of the Quorum  (sp? the mandate ruling party thing) are just a bunch of well connected slacks, but who knows. Somehow a skin spy managed in infultrate them, and I don't expect it knew a ton about the gnosis (but then again maybe he did).

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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 12:54:07 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: lockesnow
even a few hundred seems too many. I guess almost all the Mandati stay cloistered on Atyersus?

Otherwise why have only one spy with the holy war?  Where was the spy in Momemn for Achamian to reconnoiter with?  Where was the spy in Sumna for Achamian to reconnoiter with?  Where was the spy in Shimeh for Achamian to reconnoiter with?  Achamian was the spy in Carythusal and apparently the Mandate had no other eyes, no other ears in all the world.   No wonder a Skin Spy was watching Achamian in Carythusal, he was the only active Mandate sorcerer in the three seas. ;)

Well to be fair all the Mandate contacts where being hunted and killed, so what good are spys without contacts? I suppose most of them, at that point, just went home.... Though even still, they can't have many if Akka never had any contact with another Mandati the whole time.

Though did they say somewhere that the field spys didnt know the locations of the other spies for safety? So one couldnt give away them all? Or maybe thats from something else entirely.

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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 12:54:13 am »
Quote from: Madness
Ironically, geoint, the Schools sounded very much like you've described the Army - they're basically all recalled and garrisoned at Atyersus during the PON and decision making is far removed from field-operatives. Achamian recalls in TDTCB that Nautzera hasn't been on assignment in a years.

Lethargic, lack of purpose, no clear enemy, playing the charade, as the three of you have highlighted.

Achamian happens to be the whipping boy?

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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2013, 12:54:19 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
could that 'withdrawl' be the influence of Nautzera?  he ensures there are fewer field operatives, which makes it all the easier for the Consult to tail the handful that still participate in the world.

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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2013, 12:54:24 am »
Quote from: Auriga
Yeah, I also thought it was fishy that Achamian was the only active intelligence-gathering Mandate sorcerer in the Three Seas, while the rest of the Mandate was lazing around on Atyersus and not doing much.

Quote from: lockesnow
could that 'withdrawl' be the influence of Nautzera?  he ensures there are fewer field operatives, which makes it all the easier for the Consult to tail the handful that still participate in the world.

The influence of Simas, you mean. He was the skin-spy in the Mandate ruling council that got killed by Maithanet.

It's very likely.