Akka's "Power Level"?

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« on: May 15, 2013, 12:56:27 am »
Quote from: Camlost
How powerful is the wizard? In TDTCB I know he is acting as a field agent, but I felt we were given the impression that it was not a lowly position, that he was tasked with the deepest and dangerous of missions. In later books he refers to himself as a Warcant Master, lays it down at the Saerotic (I'm sure you guys will correct me) Library and then in TTT fends of some Ciphrang for a while. And finally, in the AE trilogy, while obviously outmatched by Nil'Giccas, he definitely holds his own in Cil'Aujas and certainly is contributive to defending against Wutteat.

Am I to infer that the Gnosis is just that badass? What's the internal structure of the Mandate? What is a Warcant Master's position in their hierarchy?

Side question: Would it be outside his abilities, after learning that it is possible, to have grasped the MetaGnosis (the use of a second inutterable, correct me if I'm misusing meta-) without Kellhus tutelage?

More tenuously related side questions: Do the Quya possess the MetaGnosis? Does the use of a second inutterable, creating a more precise and profound transformation of reality, result in a deeper Mark? For all the more power described in a second inutterable is their an equivalent bruising of the wielder's Mark?

My questions kind of got away from me there once I got going..

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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 12:56:33 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
Akka, coming from the area around the Mandate's stronghold, is possibly descended from a Seswatha bastard. :-p

more seriously--because everyone hates the secret heir cliche--Akka is probably quite powerful.  He knows he's good, he knows he's smart, he knows the Mandate leadership do not like keeping him around home base.  They know he's good and smart they want to use him, but don't want him to be a threat to their authority, nor do they want him to displace them, they probably do not mind his ascending to a high position of advisement when someone dies and he's old enough to 'retire' from the field, but for the time period of TDTCB they don't want him around.

Alternatively, Akka is something of a persona non-grata to the Mandate at the time of TDTCB.  This could be because of what happened with Proyas.  The education of a prince of Proyas' stature would be enormously important to the Mandate.  That Akka was tasked with Proyas shows what a High regard he was held in, even at a young age, to be the instructor of the prince.  That Akka lost the Proyas contract could explain why he's sort of kept at a distance.

There is a crackpot out there that the reason Akka and Proyas fell out was Akka seduced or molested Proyas, and Proyas went religious and his family dropped their association with the Mandate because of Akka's actions.

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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2013, 12:56:38 am »
Quote from: Camlost
*sigh* Akka and his fumbling hands..

I recall Bakker mentioning that he feels that good sorcery is approached systematically, otherwise it just seems a plot device. Personally I agree, and I find the sorcery of TSA to be refreshing and interesting in its style.

I guess I'm looking for a map of the Schools that has no doubt been aging in one of Bakker's desk drawers for decades

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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 12:56:43 am »
Quote from: Curethan
There's a bit in TDTCB where Akka is reflecting on his position in the mandate hierachy and it incidently mentions that he is powerful even for a mandati, but that his attitudes and opinions keep him from rising throught the ranks.
Other than that, I would suggest his power levels are clearly somewhat in excess of 9000.  (Someone had to say it) -.-

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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 12:56:47 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Curethan
There's a bit in TDTCB where Akka is reflecting on his position in the mandate hierachy and it incidently mentions that he is powerful even for a mandati, but that his attitudes and opinions keep him from rising throught the ranks.
Other than that, I would suggest his power levels are clearly somewhat in excess of 9000.  (Someone had to say it) -.-
Akka is not a good perspective on this.  We have to assume his view of himself is ridiculously flattering.  Of course he would think he is the misunderstood one.  It's much easier to think that he is just above the other mandati in his beliefs than to remember that the relationship with Proyas went sour and soured the Mandate on him.

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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 12:56:52 am »
Quote from: Curethan
I remember it as a narrative perspective rather than Akka ruminating.  I'll see if I can find the passage when I unpack that box of books, mate.

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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 12:56:57 am »
Quote from: Madness
Firstly, I'd think that anyone who dreams Seswatha's Dreams, is approximately as good as Seswatha was - though I would argue that many of the changes in Achamian's Dreams reflect the fact that his life begins to most resemble Seswatha's of all the Mandate.

Secondly, even if Achamian was the best Gnostic sorcerer in the world, which he's likely not, he'd still be unable to contend with Quya or the Metagnosis.

The Old Wizard is lucky he's Fate's bitch, I'd say.

@ Camlost, I figure that the Metagnosis represents a truly novel innovation to Sorcery. I mean, at the time of the tutelage - yesterday for Nonmen basically - the Second Innuteral was a myth, according to Achamian's perspective. I'm sure Achamian could learn it though. He's clearly one of the smarter people in Earwa - unless, of course, we find out that all Metagnostic sorcerers are, in fact, Dunyain.

Now that's not factoring that in Earwa the Consult have Erratic Quya, likely including Aporetic Mages, the Undead Mengaecca, and the Inchoroi, while Ishterebinth has the remaining Intact and Erratic, who don't roam the continent. Between those two groups of unknowns, we're sure to see more novel advancements in Sorcery.

I mean, why would Bakker simply repeat the original play of powers from the First Apocalypse? Clearly, the Second Apocalypse is set to be a whole 'nother level.

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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:05 am »
Quote from: Jorge
over 9000


obv

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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:11 am »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Akka at least was already aware of legends of some kind of Nonman Witch-King that could perform a second inutterable. The Nonmen have already discovered the meta-gnosis. it's just apparently beyond the skill of most sorcerers, even Quya.

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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:16 am »
Quote from: Madness
"The 'Third Phrase' was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su'juroit, the great Cunoroi Witch-King." (p139, TTT LE)

I really think this conversation of the Metagnosis and who can wield it actually boils down to whether or not all Metagnostic sorcerers are, in fact, Dunyain.

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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:23 am »
Quote from: SkiesOfAzel
IIRC, in the DTCB Akka said that the Gnosis is Quya refined and improved for 2 thousand years, so i'd assume that he is more powerful than most Quya Mages except for some big Isroi names like Cleric. I would even go as far as to argue that Cleric seems so much more formidable simply because he combines his Magical expertise with his physical and martial prowess. What's weird is that Akka muses in the JE that he cares nothing for the Gnosis, so how did he become so good at wielding it?

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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:32 am »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Practice helps too. Cants that are a great mental strain on a Mandati are mere reflex for a living Quya mage. Even if they weren't tremendously more powerful, they could probably outlast any human sorcerer.

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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:37 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Not sure how spoilers are on this thread in particular, so WLW spoiler I suppose:

It seems no one has mentioned a certain someone's daughter. When she and her little band are skipping like a stone across the wilderness, its mentioned that the metagnosis is so taxing that she can only do it twice a day. So I think if akka tried to use it, he might simply die due to too much strain. He's not know for his fortitude after all.

It almost certainly has to be done by a Dunyain or a Quya based on that observation.

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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:41 am »
Quote from: Madness
Wilshire, the Misc. Chatter has become a wild west for Earwa spoilers. Something I try to mediate for new members in the updated subforum description.

So anything goes here for now. Else wise, spoiler tags if you refer to anything which happens in a later novel than the one you are posting in - for example, commenting on knowledge from WLW in TTT subforum.

Cheers.

Perhaps, Achamian couldn't manage it. To be honest though, he's continually surprising me. I had originally thought he'd be to old to hang in TAE before TJE came out.

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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2013, 12:57:46 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Wilshire
Not sure how spoilers are on this thread in particular, so WLW spoiler I suppose:

It seems no one has mentioned a certain someone's daughter. When she and her little band are skipping like a stone across the wilderness, its mentioned that the metagnosis is so taxing that she can only do it twice a day. So I think if akka tried to use it, he might simply die due to too much strain. He's not know for his fortitude after all.

It almost certainly has to be done by a Dunyain or a Quya based on that observation.

We don't know how trustworthy the 'exhaustion' is.  it would be trivial for Kellhus to whelm Serwa with a post hypotnic suggestion that crippled her with exhaustion whenever she performed one of his metagnostic cants.  Since his children will be big threats to him, this seems a prudent course of action.

Or it could be a plot. why?  Many possible reasons that are perfectly good on their own or in combination:  Kellhus doesn't want Serwa there too soon, Kellhus wants Serwa to be pregnant when she gets to Ishterebinth, and/or Kellhus and Serwa and Moe want Sorweel to think that the metagnosis is a weakness that can be exploited, so the Anasurimbor are sowing false information with Ishterebinth, by first revealing it 'in secret' to Sorweel.  Remember, they think of Sorweel as an enemy, not as someone who shares their goals or believes in the Ordeal.  Sorweel thinks they trust him because Yatwer hid his face, but Serwa blatently tells him that they think of him as an enemy.

Likewise, he shows Esme his exhaustion because he knows the info will get out and people will perceive it as a weakness they can exploit only to be surprised when he isn't (and hell a few hundred cants skipping across the horizon does sound exhausting, sort of like trying to do a few hundred pull ups in a row).

We get a lot of teleportations and no hint of exhaustion in the battle of Shimeh, if anything it should be more pronounced there since it is a new thing to him at the time.