What does Kellhus/his children think of Sorweel?

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« on: May 22, 2013, 08:40:47 pm »
Quote from: Walter
I've always sort of thought that Yatwer wasn't as able to deceive Kellhus as Sorweel thinks.  Do you guys think his true feelings are actually concealed from Kellhus and Co, or do you think they are acting as though they are just acting as though they are deceived?

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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 08:40:52 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I think its pretty clear from Wilshire's foggy recollections ;) of Ch. 3 that Serwa cannot see Sorweel's face and that Moenghus does recognize something in Sorweel. However, I think Kellhus keeps everyone in the dark. I was always surprised how much truth he told Esmenet but nothing deceives so well as the truth.

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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 08:40:57 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I think they have to guess around the absence of information, much like the rest of us (ie, rendered down to being much like worldborn like Kellhus remarks when he's about to be put on the circumfix)

I think the spooky thing Scott will bring in is that what animates Sorweels face is actually an entitity in itself, one which thinks it's in control of everything it does - which is to say, what Sorweel does.

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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:02 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
I like that latter thought, Callan.

I think Kellhus would have reasoned his way around Sorweel.  If he didn't see Sorweel's face change in response the way he expected it to.  The preview chapter suggests that Sorweel's face is not animated to reflect what an anasurimbor expects to see, but rather it is animated by love for the anasurimbor.  Kellhus looks at the Delta in a face to gauge his manipulations and if he's not seeing any change, then he might reason the presence by the absence, classic scientific method.

Of course that sort of implies Sorweel is a black hole, neh?

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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:07 pm »
Quote from: Centurion
This is actually the question which currently dominates my thoughts when I'm thinking about this series.  Here is where I am at:

Kellhus has walked in the Outside.  At least, he disappeared for several days and came back claiming to have walked the Outside.  He could be lying about this, but it feels true to me.  He has explicitly stated that he was able to understand the laws of the Outside, and that the rules of the Outside and of magic follow the law of what comes before.  But even if everything he has said is true (i think it is) it still doesn't mean that he is capable of seeing the whole of the gods' plans.  Kellhus is still anchored by what comes before, and it seems like the gods would have to exist within a more complex reality of cause and effect.

As powerful as Kellhus and his Metagnosis are there appear to be a limits on what they can do.  Kellhus can forge earth-shattering spells with his Dunyain intellect, but he cannot heal or create.  The text seems to be pretty clear that events like Psatma's spontaneous bleeding and Yatwer's animated mud-visage are miracles, and these should be seen as distinct from even the most powerful of sorcery.  It is possible that Kellhus can work and see such power, but that leaves me wondering why he isn't using this divine power to work his master plan.

It seems likely to me that the very nature of the gods renders them fundamentally different from mortals, and this includes their ability to interact with the mundane.  They might be blind to the actions of Mog-Pharau (and possibly many other things), but they are still incredibly powerful.  This power would extend to their ability to forge an assassin capable of slipping past a Dunyain intellect.  Granted, Maithanet was not a pure Dunyain, but he was still very very good.

All of this leads me to conclude that the gods are probably capable of creating a glamour strong enough to trick a Dunyain.  Is this the case with Sorweel's relationship with Yatwer?  I don't know, but I'm kind of thinking it is.

Question:  Do miracles carry the same taint of damnation that sorcery does?  If they don't does that mean that the gods act within the will of the one god?  It would be very interesting to find out what Mimara sees when she looks at Sorweel.

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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:12 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I doubt they carry the same taint, Centurion. Probably looks Holy to Mimara.

Sorweel & Mimara are going to be an interesting combination.

+1 for Miracles & Faith Power.

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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:17 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Like that idea, Callan.
In WLW just before Kellhus reveals his fire watching trick to Proyas there is a bit where Sorweel is with Zsoronga and co, staring at the fire and Sorweel feels very stongly that he is being watched.
This is just after he was named as a believer-king, so Kellhus is probably keeping a close eye on him. 
The way Sorweel acts around his peers is quite at odds with what Kellhus apparently read off his face.

I'm starting to suspect that Sorweel is a feint anyway, designed to distract Kellhus from the real assassin.
Would be a typical character arc for all his agonizing to be pointless as he ends up a stooge in the gods' designs.

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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:22 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 on Fire-Watching, Curethan.

I think Sorweel is something else, though.

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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:26 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I think were recognising that Kellhus would see discrepancies in regard to the face he sees in Sorweel. The thing is, that seems like him still being able to see into someone by working around with discrepancies, because that's how we see into other people. Kellhus has had direct access cut off and so is dragged down to a level much closer to our own. Ie, he'll stumble forward with one idea (naming Sorweel 'believer king'), then have to correct latter, then correct again, etc. Rendering him, in regards to Sorweel, like us. It's a huge change. It's like damaging Kasperovs brain so his chess skill comes down to our level - his play might seem normal to us, but it's a big change!

Indeed I was just wondering what if the gods at some point decide to make everyone like Sorweels been made? So the gods close off the world from the Dunyain (ironic, eh?)

And that leaves a world full of entities who think they are in control, but who are blind to their brain...

Just a few more changes and you've written an origin story for our world, eh?

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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:32 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Ah yes, isn't the mark of a true King one that has a hand which heals?

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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:38 pm »
Quote from: harrol
As Curethan said Kellhus knows that Sorweel is not a converted, he has seen it through the flames. Why else would Kellhus have sent him to the nonmen?

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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:44 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: harrol
As Curethan said Kellhus knows that Sorweel is not a converted, he has seen it through the flames. Why else would Kellhus have sent him to the nonmen?

Ah but what happened to keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer? Kellhus wouldn't want to send and unknown outside of his sphere of influence.

Then again, if he believed that Sorweel was a Believer King, but just liked to talk trash in private, it would make a good ploy to send him as his "enemy" as per the agreement.

IMO either side is entirely possible. I can't decide if he does or doesn't 'know' something is up with Sorweel.

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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:48 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Kellhus does tolerate trash-talk when he isn't around - Kelmomas, Momemn. EDIT: Sorry, that is both a specific example and the fact that Kelmomas POV comments on the lack of unity outside of Kellhus' presence as does Esmenet.

But even Serwa notices something is up with Sorweel and reveals her Kelmomas real quick because I'm pretty sure she uses the Gnostic Cants of Torment, the Agonies, on him (All references to Wilshire's dutiful notetaking at the Ch. 3 notetaking at Laurier).

Kellhus is Dunyain. Yatwer's Mask doesn't fool him, just indicates that there's a player he does or does not understand. Maithanet and Esmenet are pretty clear on the actual Hundred hunting their Dynasty in TJE.

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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 08:41:54 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Like you say, lots of the believer kings trash talk when not in his presence. Its just what people do, so the fact that Sorweel does is just entirely normal. There are other, more subtle, ways that Kell would be able to guess at something behind the scenes.

And also, again I agree, Kellhus is aware of the gods and they actively admit that they(dunyain/anasorimbor family) believe the gods could be rallying against them.

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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2016, 07:07:49 pm »
Just thinking about how playfull/prankish Scott seems to be with his work (hoarding details and overturning expectations) and thinking about how much he loves the theme of hidden ignorance...

What if Sorweel is a decoy for both the Anasurimbors and the reader?  Having identified the 1 individual with their face hidden by divine power, the holy family and the audience may be convinced that no other individual moves in the same way on the plate.  Magician Bakker will have us all watching Sorweel's blade when Kellhus get's a knife in the back from Iyokus? Moe jr?  Kayutas?  I think it would be someone that we have not gotten an inner monologue of so far.