Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult

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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 04:47:28 pm »
Quote from: Madness
For my own part, I'd suggest that the stillborn thing is important.

Attribution errors aside, the years of stillbirth, associated with the No-God's existence are a horrifying thought.

Mimara has the Judging Eye. This apparently only afflicts woman who will become pregnant at some point in their lives. Achamian explicitly says that the pregnancy results in a stillborn baby and it is implied in the text and what Achamian omits that the women die during childbirth.

Children, wombs, childbirth, seed - all big motifs.

+1 for hypotheses, lockesnow.

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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 04:47:36 pm »
Quote from: pappu
This is just a completely random thought... :D

What if Kellhus, contrary to his preaching, knows of his own damnation; the damnation that accompanies his mark? What if he is trying to erase that very damnation? What if the whole Great Ordeal is an attempt to rewrite the laws of the world; the laws of balance? What if the only way for Kellhus to accomplish this is to kill the original makers of these laws? What if Kellhus is trying to kill the Gods??

That would be an extra reason for Yatwer wanting him dead so badly. Also, he could be planning to use the consult's technology to open a gate of some sort to the outerworld and war against the gods themselves.

Kellhus might not be the man who we think him to be. He could simply have gone mad with power. Maybe his whole divine quest is just a cover-up for a war driven by one man's lust for power.

I think that's one of the greatest aspects of Bakker's writing. You can never tell what's right and what's wrong. Unlike in many other fantasy works, his characters are real. They are all raw human beings and are subject to the flaws and urges that come so naturally to us; the whims and fancies. There is no distinct good and evil. Just people in a bloody devastated godforsaken world; a lot like ours.

And maybe the qirri will have some effect on Mimara's childbirth??

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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 04:47:48 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 for thoughts, pappu.

Yes... the Qirri.

And now that they've lost all of Cu'jara Cinmoi, how is Nil'giccas going to affect them differently?

Are the Intact all just snorting their dead heroes?!

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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 04:48:02 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Why would Kellhus still be striving for the self moving soul?  He is not a dunyain any longer, and even if he were he is too enmeshed in the darkness to precede it now.
He may not care if you are crushed by the pursuit of his quest, but neither does he recieve gratification for any achievement.  So why would he pursue immortality?  Indeed, what point in surviving the completion of his mission?

If he thinks he needs to escape damnation - maybe.  But I think he's too crazy to believe that.

The other dunyain themselves would not be damned, anyway.  They are protected by their isolation.
Quote from: RSB
The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies.

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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 04:48:09 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I think those are assumptions about Kellhus, Curethan, like all our assertions are.

So the Righteous God requires that you attract its attention to gain Absolution... much safer to not play the game at all, rather than try and live righteously.

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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 04:48:26 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
+1 for thoughts, pappu.
Are the Intact all just snorting their dead heroes?!

Did Cleric ever actually take qirri himself, or did he just administer it?

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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 04:48:34 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I actually don't think I've had a copy of TJE since I started the forum, having lent them out. Where I am the most common Bakker titles to be carried anywhere are TDTCB and WLW - I never make a point to order one.

However, I recently found confirmation among the posts on Three Seas/Wayback that on p399 (I believe) of TJE Mimara sees Cleric with the Judging Eye and he too is Damned - though, obviously, the reasons for his damnation are up for his debate like Achamian's - all in the quest to prove or disprove Kellhus' assertion that Sorcery is no longer Damned.

You know, books not on hand, I figure, Cleric never did. This is Cleric's plan all along - addict people to Qirri, eventually deny it to them, most addicts will fight you for their fix.

And now I think I've decided that Cleric did, in fact, give up. He wanted to die as Nil'giccas and fighting Achamian/Seswatha at Sauglish was probably all too overwhelming for him - when was that specific kind of traumatic circumstance ever going to randomly happen again.

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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 04:48:43 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
He says something like "This is where I'm meant to die" when they arrive...

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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2013, 04:48:51 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Oh, we have a thread ;): The Cleric Suicides...[/b].

In fact, you're the last person to post in it.

I just never agreed with him committing suicide before. Revelation on my part.

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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 04:48:58 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Mithfanion, 2005
Scott, could you say who or what is Nin-Ciljiras? He (or it) is mentioned by the Inchoroi...

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
He's a character in The Aspect-Emperor...

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
Mansion' is used both as a term to describe Nonmen cities, and much as the way 'House' is used - as an epithet for dynasties, families, etc.

In my old notes the Nonmen also used totemic devices, but in the multi-form manner that characterizes much of their art. So for instance, a Nonmen representation of a wolf would likely show it occupying two or more postures at once, like sleeping/running.

Having Nonmen blood means many things - things, which come to the fore when the Nonmen take a more active role in The Aspect-Emperor. Sometimes I feel like you're the dirty old man in the strip bar sitting on sniff row shouting 'take it off!'

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004
The Aspect-Emperor, another trilogy which returns to the demented cast (those that survive, that is) of PON some twenty years later. More than a few people groan when I say this, which is why I always feel the need to explain myself! First, I conceived and roughed out the greater cycle of stories (as a trilogy of trilogies) the year before WoT came out, so this is most definitely not a case of me slavishly following commercial precedents. This means, secondly, that every book in the series is motivated by STORY, and not money (if there is any in this business!) Third, PON is a complete tale, and not merely the first third of one. The relationship of AE to PON is more akin to the relationship between the Dune books, though the narrative arc that binds them - the story of the Second Apocalypse - is, I like to think, less ad hoc than Herbert's.

As strange as it sounds, I look at PON as my version of The Hobbit.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004
Many Nonmen wander Earwa and the Three Seas, searching for trauma - which is to say, memories. A few hundred serve Golgotterath. The majority of these are what are called 'Erratics' - Nonmen who've been driven mad by the accumulation of trauma.

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.

There, I've gone and said too much!

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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2013, 04:49:08 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
That makes it sound like getting Ishterebinth to come over to the Great Ordeal is crucial.  Not that saying so it too surprising, but it sounds like there are indeed a lot of powerful Quya that can still be swayed.

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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2013, 04:49:17 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1. Whether they're necessary for the Ordeal or not is incidental to me. I've wanted to experience Ishterebinth since TWP.

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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2013, 04:49:25 pm »
Quote from: WillemB
Hmm... most of the way through WLW, almost done in fact.  Kellhus' appearance at the end of the climactic battle in the book, and his subsequent use of metagnosis (I assume) to blast a legion of sranc back through the air inspired further reflection on his motives.

Here's an addition/amendment to my original post in this thread:

Kellhus - Aspiring God/Demon:  Kellhus' objective is to keep the world open (in contrast to Moe) so that his followers can better worship him in the afterlife.  We know that the followers of Yatwer need only "reach to her" when they die.  How better to become a truly self-moving soul than to transcend; to be come a god/demon a la Yatwer, to set up his own little slice-o-heaven.  Perhaps to be a god one need only have believers (echoes of Malazan?). 

So, Kellhus willingly dies, sacrificed in pursuance of the salvation of humanity.   By grooming Proyas' expectations about the nature of his divinity, Kellhus prepares him for the inevitable fact of his (Kellhus') own self-sacrifice/death, "conditioning the path".  Consider this bit:

Quote
“We begin believing when we are children,” Kellhus continued. “And so we make childish expectations our rule, the measure for what the holy should be …” He gestured to the ornamentation about them, spare as it was compared with the fleshpots of the South. “Simplicity. Symmetry. Beauty. These are but the appearance of the holy—the gilding that deceives. What is holy is difficult, ugly beyond comprehension, in the eyes of all save the God.”

So, just as the Circumfix is the symbol for this portion of Kellhus' journey to godhood, a little iconized version of him getting skewered by Aurang (a moment that is "ugly beyond comprehension") will be the symbol for the next.  Proyas, properly invested by Kellhus with leadership of the Ordeal, will cry a slow-mo "nooooooooooooooooo" then tearfully lead the armies of men, with some help from Akka, Mimara, and the Heron Spear, to finally vanquish the Consult (and Cnaiur, who will show up on a balcony at Golgotterath, sipping a cup-o Sanka while ur-Serwe massages his feet). 

All the Three Seas will spend the rest of forever happily worshipping Kellhus and populate his private playground in the Outside.  Because this is such a tidy ending, RSB will announce that there will be no 3rd trilogy, and will plaster an italicized 'fin' on the last page of The Unholy Consult, closing the book on Earwa for once and all.

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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 04:49:36 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: WillemB
Kellhus' objective is to keep the world open (in contrast to Moe) so that his followers can better worship him in the afterlife. We know that the followers of Yatwer need only "reach to her" when they die. How better to become a truly self-moving soul than to transcend; to be come a god/demon a la Yatwer, to set up his own little slice-o-heaven. Perhaps to be a god one need only have believers (echoes of Malazan?)

Moenghus did it first :). I've plugged this thought for some time, in small measure, that Kellhus might use Dagliash to attempt something of this nature. However, if he does, that means it's extremely likely that Moenghus the Elder did the same thing at Shimeh/Kyudea.

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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 04:49:43 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Why use Dagliash when Golgotterath is so liguistically similar to Golgotha?