[themerchant]

I've always asked how far does that "No-God feeling" permeate. Everyone can feel him, does that include all living things in the universe. I thought if it was felt universally then other folk may turn up.

In scale the Non-man-Inchoroi wars seem to be a much larger "spectacle" laser weapons vs Sorcery a gender eliminated. A war lasting hundreds of years.

Until the No-God is alive and controlling the weapon races, it's just not as big an event. 2 Inchies and the consult versus Kellhus. This time the option of zerging is open with the No-god, but i think the No-God threat is more nuanced than he can get tens of millions of sranc to run in the same direction.

So yeah i've always thought there is a possibility other Inchies might turn up, the No-God being some sort of homing beacon.

[mrganondorf]

I've always asked how far does that "No-God feeling" permeate. Everyone can feel him, does that include all living things in the universe. I thought if it was felt universally then other folk may turn up.

In scale the Non-man-Inchoroi wars seem to be a much larger "spectacle" laser weapons vs Sorcery a gender eliminated. A war lasting hundreds of years.

Until the No-God is alive and controlling the weapon races, it's just not as big an event. 2 Inchies and the consult versus Kellhus. This time the option of zerging is open with the No-god, but i think the No-God threat is more nuanced than he can get tens of millions of sranc to run in the same direction.

So yeah i've always thought there is a possibility other Inchies might turn up, the No-God being some sort of homing beacon.

that is awesome! did not think of that!  it's like the quantum messaging thing?  what Mog's soul feels, all souls feel?  all souls are isomorphic with Mog's?  Mog declares the blindness that all souls feel but do not understand?  it knows it is blind because it is the only one stripped of it's illusions?  it is Socrates?

really tho, the dreams we get from Akka are just snippets, if the reader could just hear what else Mog has to say, the meaning would be obvious "WHAT DO YOU SEE?  I CANNOT SEE.  I DON'T KNOW WHERE I LEFT MY GLASSES."

it seems a pretty repetitive thing to harp on.  maybe TUC will bring us a full fledged Mog sermon

[Wilshire]

I'd guess the Mog  feeling could potentially include all ensouled creatures.

MG I kind of like those thoughts. It does seem a bit odd that a rthey would continue along there quest and waste so many lives [their own race]. 

The return of the inchoroi would make a good fan fix at least.

[mrganondorf]

I'd guess the Mog  feeling could potentially include all ensouled creatures.

MG I kind of like those thoughts. It does seem a bit odd that a rthey would continue along there quest and waste so many lives [their own race]. 

The return of the inchoroi would make a good fan fix at least.

Return of the Lovers!!!

Mog isn't just controlling the Derived, he's incubating things in them.  Given more than 11 years and Mog will hatch all of the Inchoroi from the bodies of Sranc and Bashrag giving the lovers the new clean souls that were stolen from Earwa's stillborn babies

[EkyannusIII]

new end to TUC: Kellhus wipes out the Consult heirarchy, seizes control of the Derived via the Mog Apparatus and boards the Ark with the Derived, the Great Ordeal, and the Dunyain.  the Ark is repaired and launches towards the Nail of Heaven which is revealed as the Inchoroi homeworld.  Kellhus pulls an Ender Wiggin move: permanently eliminate the threat at it's source

while i'm thinking about it--Inchoroi motivation still baffles me.  i can't understand why they would incur unnecessary risks while their stated goal is to avoid damnation (like antagonizing nonmen).

That's always been my take as well, their rational course of action is to just stay near Golgotterath behind half a continent of sranc Bashrags and Wracu and amuse themselves with what they have there.  They are immortal except when killed by violence and everyone else except the Mandate thought they were dead.  No need to rock that boat.

so Aurang and Aurax anticipating reinforcements?

My pet theory has always been that they were running from others of their own kind, or maybe a second alien species, who are uncorrupted - the xenos equivalents of Proyas, in other words.  Probably can't work, but it still sounds fun.

Better point - since the Inchoroi are damned because of their "lifestyle choices", so to speak, and those seem linked to their mastery of the Tekne and subsequent embrace of hedonism - that would imply that prior generations of their species are not damned out of hand since those conditions came into being at a certain point in their racial history and would not condition the salvation of earlier members of the species.  Could Kellhus have talked to redeemed Inchoroi from ~ 100 years or so before their total collapse into perversion while he was jaunting about the Outside? Seems like a smart move to attempt at least.

[Simas Polchias]

That's always been my take as well, their rational course of action is to just stay near Golgotterath behind half a continent of sranc Bashrags and Wracu and amuse themselves with what they have there. 

Even if they have some anti-topoi technology (and they should, for their common habits are actually nothing short of topoi-production line), there is always a chance of malfunction & meeting some Outside in your WC. Weapon races are seems kinda useless against horde of ciphrang swarming out of some freaking-big portal to feast on the immortal immoral sorcerers (both halaroi, cunuroi & inchoroi).

Also, I reckon, immortal persons should somehow think on the slighter changed basis than mortal. They are so long-lived that even slightest possibilities (like, crazy priest-king who orders his crazy sorcerers to blow out the planet crust on the other side of the planet, eliminating it whole) are real concerns for them. They are diluted duniayin, they have lots of causes to expand their control.

[Blackstone]

I think, for sure, the GO has to fail. If it succeeded in destroying the Consult and preventing the resurrection of the No-God, a final un-named duology of books wouldn't be necessary. So I suspect the GO will be destroyed. It will be on Sorweel, Akka, and Mimara to raise a second ordeal (history repeats itself yet again), and with most of the Three Seas decimated, it will be on Zeum to shoulder the majority of the burden. And perhaps we will see a return by the fifth tribe of men that stayed on the other side of the gates back in year 0.

If the GO is doomed to fail, the question is how. I didn't even consider it on the first read, but after a few rereads, I think the WLW will succeed in killing Kellhus. I don't see how he couldn't. The book says many times that the WLW sees himself killing Kellhus. He dispatched Maithanet with ease, and although Maithanet is only half Dunyain, I think that's an indicator that the WLW will ultimately be successful. After watching their sweet God of Gods get slain, the GO will inevitably fall apart. It's their belief in Kellhus that holds them together.

Also, I wonder if something won't happen with the Nail of Heaven. We know it isn't a star. Is it perhaps a mothership the Inchoroi left in orbit (a la Independence Day)?

[themerchant]

The books says he kills the aspect emperor not kellhus, which might be splitting hairs. Also the aspect emperor has to block a sword blow with his own sword, when the skin spy leaped at him in TJE he immobilized it with sorcery.

Also Maithanet was killed while being identified as using cheap dye which might indicate something, or it might be he can't get good dye as the Fanim have been attacking while Esmi has been hiding out in a tent.

Personally i believe he was saying you must tell my brother..S. as he died. Why bring them up their existence previously? How could esmi tell Kellhus anything anyway? So why would it just be brother?

Cheap dye,cryptic message, reveal of having had brothers, also pauses noted in text when he is replying around the subject. I don't know anything about literary analysis but i have alarm bells ringing

[H]

The Nail of Heaven has always kind of bothered me, in that I should probably have figured out what it is already, but still haven't.  I don't think it's a ship, but the fact that it doesn't move seems to imply that it is in geosynchronous orbit, which kind of precludes anything natural.

On the Great Ordeal, I think you are right, it will fail, but not in the sense of preventing the Second Apocalypse.  The SA is a semantic one, so in a way they succeed in that the world isn't ravaged like it was in the FA, but fail to stop the more grand implication.

By the way, I hear that you are a "new" old member, so welcome back Blackstone.

[themerchant]

It was a new star according to the non-men. It silvers clouds , it doesn't change position in the sky. Synchronous orbit like Charon and Pluto. It might be big enough to be in "tidal lock" if it's not smaller using propulsion to stay in the orbit. I've considered the "mother-ship" myself, I would like that i feel we need more "baddies" to beat the first apocalypse out in scale.

I have a half-idea that Earwa and Eamna are separated by more than just mountains, the gates were dimensional in some way. Earwa is a "seperate" dimension the NoH is a portal of some sorts.

The way the gods see reminds me of my understanding of how inside a black hole would "look", since time is slowed down you would see (if that were possible) all the past events frozen and available but wouldn't really be able to discern what happened when. Which sort of sounds like how the gods apprehend the whole but are still dodgy on details.

I'm going to smoke and see if anything is revealed to me

[Blackstone]

The books says he kills the aspect emperor not kellhus, which might be splitting hairs. Also the aspect emperor has to block a sword blow with his own sword, when the skin spy leaped at him in TJE he immobilized it with sorcery.

Also Maithanet was killed while being identified as using cheap dye which might indicate something, or it might be he can't get good dye as the Fanim have been attacking while Esmi has been hiding out in a tent.

Personally i believe he was saying you must tell my brother..S. as he died. Why bring them up their existence previously? How could esmi tell Kellhus anything anyway? So why would it just be brother?

Cheap dye,cryptic message, reveal of having had brothers, also pauses noted in text when he is replying around the subject. I don't know anything about literary analysis but i have alarm bells ringing

I think that's splitting hairs. The WLW wouldn't think of Kellhus in terms of his name, he would think of him as the AE. Psatma never thinks of the AE as "Kellhus" for example. My opinion.

I didn't catch the cheap dye. That might mean something. It was my assumption that Maithanet is telling Esmi to warn Kellhus about Kelmomas.


Thanks HH! It's good to be back.

[Madness]

Yes, Blackstone, I'm glad you found your way home . Welcome (back) to the Second Apocalypse.

[Wilshire]

If in fact WLW does kill Kellhus, I doub tit will be before Kellhus accomplishes whatever it is he wants to accomplish. There is no way for WLW and AE to be in the same space until after the Ordeal is defeated/succeeds, and Kellhus returns to give word to his Empire.

Akka coming back a la Seswatha to warn Zeum to shoulder the burden of the SA/Mog's return, seems most plausible.

In TWP Kellhus mention's that the only way to defeat death is with sons, and that only Dunyain sons will be capable to complete the tasks he sees before him. Kellhus plans to die, and has planned to die since before the circumfixtion, but he comes before his children and his plans will live beyond him. WLW killing him or no, the thousandfold thought marches onward.


Welcome back to the SA.

[Blackstone]

If in fact WLW does kill Kellhus, I doub tit will be before Kellhus accomplishes whatever it is he wants to accomplish. There is no way for WLW and AE to be in the same space until after the Ordeal is defeated/succeeds, and Kellhus returns to give word to his Empire.

Why not? The WLW can travel to Golgotterath. It would be the easiest journey ever considering how he just "lucks" in to everything. Seriously. I don't expect him to hang around the Three Seas until Kellhus gets back.

[mrganondorf]

If in fact WLW does kill Kellhus, I doub tit will be before Kellhus accomplishes whatever it is he wants to accomplish. There is no way for WLW and AE to be in the same space until after the Ordeal is defeated/succeeds, and Kellhus returns to give word to his Empire.

Why not? The WLW can travel to Golgotterath. It would be the easiest journey ever considering how he just "lucks" in to everything. Seriously. I don't expect him to hang around the Three Seas until Kellhus gets back.

The WLW is going to kill Kellhus at Golggotterath (Golgotha) and Kellhus (Jesus) has already prepared for it with his meta-gnosis-daimos.  That fucker is going to bounce right out of hell and right back into his body and chop of WLWs heed.  Maybe.

I know I know!  Kellhus will be cut down.  On the third day he will rise again.  Or at least his body will.  Something else might be looking out through those eyes, like Ajokli or dear old dad...

While Kellhus is 'in the tomb' the end of TUC will build to it's desperate climax as Kayutas tries to hold TGO together even though there is no hope as it is surrounded and attacked around the clock.  Kellhus returns just in time FUCK UP EVERYBODY'S SHIT