Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children

  • 102 Replies
  • 33559 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5722
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« on: May 29, 2013, 02:58:31 am »
Because I'm vain and this post stagnated, hows about I revive a piece of my speculation that wasn't argued over
Quote from: Wilshire
On kids:
This was something of a curiosity. Reading carefully (or with bias i guess) it can be seen that much more is going on than what was actually said. What was said and what was read :P

"How many children did grandfather sire?"
"Six," ...
"Were any of them like me?"
A fraction of a heartbeat.
"I have no way of knowing. He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."


At first glance, not much here. Six kids, drowned all of them cuz they where crazy. Right? Wrong! (mostly crackpot):
The six children of Moenghus. First son was Kellhus which I think most people over looked, and another was Maithanet. That leaves us with 4. I think the remaining children that he "sired" are the 4 that lived. The ones that remained un-drowned.
Look: "where any of them like me?" ... "He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
If Maithanet and the other 4 never expressed signs of peculiarities, then they wouldn't have been drowned. The statement remains truth. Daddy Moe did drown all the crazies. But are those considered true sons? Or just something ... other ... something not quite human. Something not to be counted as among your tribe. A scylivendi woman who gives birth to a white child has not born a true son. Not a true kinsmen. Just something other to be discarded. So the 6 children of Moenghus are the those that remain alive.

Ah, but you say, the last two lines disprove this. He was the only one that expressed balance.
Nay I tell you. Look closer!
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."
First of all, balance is not what condemned the children, it was peculiarities. Balance has been substituted here, and this may have allowed Maithanet to lie with truth. None of the remaining children where peculiar, thus left alive, but maybe none of them were balanced. Maybe they excelled in certain fields more than others. A schoolman is not balanced in the ways of combat. The sons or daughters of Moenghus may have been specialized in certain fields, while Maitha could see sorcery, could wield a sword, could speak with a silver tongue. Maybe the most balanced, but not the only one that lived.
The remaining 5 sons of Moenghus walk.


Anyone have any thoughts? Probably reading with extreme bias here but I think it sounded like a cool idea.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Crtha

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 06:41:36 am »
Doesn't fit the world building imho.

All of Khellus' children are defective.  None command the proper dunyain aura with a fraction of Maitha's abilities.  They are all defined by character traits.

Moe was restricted in his ability to breed and rear children whereas K has had access to concubines etc and possibly had to keep Esme's kids.

I don't think Moe had the ability to succeed where Khellus failed in raising a small team of properly conditioned mini-dunyain.  With Maitha he already had much beeter success than K.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5722
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 03:18:53 pm »
Maybe the fanim or Cish souls could more readily accept the dunyain progeny?
Kellhus is somehow defective in a way that makes his children retarded/crazy?

You are probably right though, not very likely.

I still never really understood why Esmi was the one that could sire his children, and how Moe could have found someone to bare him a nearly perfect child. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'm imagining that a properly half-dunyain reared child would end up like Maitha, but untrained would end up like Kellhus' kids.

Couldn't it be that Moenghus was able to take the time to raise and train his children as well as training them to hide their emotional shortcomings from normal people? Certainly all the children that were born with several legs and arms or 10 eyes would have been drowned, but I can't see why the physically normal ones couldn't have been trained to near perfection.

30 years is a long time.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 04:21:10 pm »
I'm 100% on board for Meppa, second worldborn son of Moenghus.

I think we're (treading another/new topic) but something we've certainly ignored so far are any proscriptions by the Fanim against their priests (Cishaurim). Did Moenghus have to raise Maithanet (or any other children) in secrecy under threat of punishment?

I share the distinction between the trained and untrained half-Dunyain. After all, Kellhus is managing Empire - also, Maithanet cannot see the reason for Kellhus keeping Inrilatas alive, when Maithanet suggested Moenghus the Elder would have drowned Inrilatas for exhibiting his peculiarities. But ultimately Kellhus is too damned busy to train his children more than he has.

Arguably, he's trained Serwa with sorcery and Kayutas, certainly, with the Ways of Face and Limb (sp?)(I imagine Kayutas as not of the Few will be unparalled in martial combat), as those who displayed the most balance. I've suggested before that Theliopa is already basically an autistic half-Dunyain, thus requiring little training. Inrilatas was only partially trained because Kellhus thought that it would provide Inrilatas some measure of constraint.

Thirty years is so long. If Moenghus could actually see as a Cishaurim, then if he wasn't playing games in the World, he certainly must have been with the Outside - doubly ironic and suggestive when considering that Maithanet (/Meppa) cover the two great faiths.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 04:24:40 pm by Madness »

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 04:28:10 pm »
I felt the need to begin some new content. If I find the existing thread, I'll merge them. Sorry Wilshire ;).

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5722
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 05:16:03 pm »
If Meppa really was a secret son, what would Moe have planned for him?

A contingency plan if Kellhus failed the test at the Tree? Moe never could see past that crossroads, and the shortest path ended, once again, in a dead end. Did he sit around and wait for this last hope, knowing that it was the true shortest path? Seems unlikely.

Probably more likely that he decided for forge another trail. Moe knew that it would take a full Dunyain to tame Earwa. After all, his half Dunyain son Maitha could only manage all known practitioners of Inrithism under the guise of some meta-Shriah. If one half Dunyain could capture half the world, then why not 2 halves to make a whole? It would take more time, certainly not the shortest path, but better to have a contingency plan for the almost inevitable failure of Kellhus.

So Moe sent his fully trained son to capture the hearts of the Three Seas, and then set out to find a suitable host for his next son. Some whore that could bare the weight of his seed. Just a lucky coincidence that all 3 of his living sons were all of the Few. But where Maitha could not hope to control all if he delved into sorcery, this youngest son could of course be fully trained in the ways of the Psuke, avoiding the pitfalls of the Dunyain training that would stunt his abilities.

With a father that could fully devote time and energy to proper training, Meppa grew to be quite the little potential meta-psukari. However, before Moe could finish, his eldest son, crazy as a loon, shows up at his door. You know, Moe probably wouldn't have died if Cnaiur didnt also show up, and wasn't so stupid as to forget his chorae. Whats a little knife wound to a Dunyain?

Don't know how Meppa losing his memory fits in, but the fact that he has no past means that we can insert whatever theory we wish into it :P. So, how about it? Anyone got a timeline and some ages that could help prove/disprove this nerdenal?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 05:38:01 pm »
A contingency plan if Kellhus failed the test at the Tree? Moe never could see past that crossroads, and the shortest path ended, once again, in a dead end. Did he sit around and wait for this last hope, knowing that it was the true shortest path? Seems unlikely.

This is actually conjecture - I've offered, what I think is, a fairly decent argument a handful of times across threads. Hifanat (Moenghus' Cishaurim messenger in TWP) tells Kellhus that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus offers simple corroboration when Kellhus suggests that Moenghus did not see farther than the Test of the Tree and Moenghus acts surprised when Kellhus tells his father that he grasped the Thought... when clearly a book before Moenghus had told Kellhus through Hifanat that Kellhus would grasp the Thought.

As to Meppa... Well, clearly, we're all chomping at the bit to see if Moenghus did have plans beyond the conclusion of the Prince of Nothing or not. Also, we've had very little insight into Fanim culture.

But these don't offer Moenghus' reasons for raising/creating a Metapshukari apart of perceived narrative obligations ;)...

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 05:48:41 pm »
Hell, Moe may have never intended Kellhus to survive, he may have simply wanted Kellhus to appear and become "known" to the world via the Holy War.

Why?

Well to let the world know that "An Anasurimbor had returned!"  He wanted a harbinger, because that would be a crucial piece of evidence in opposing Golgotteranth post Holy War.

**
Also, more related to the task at hand, drowning could refer to a Cishaurim ceremony of induction.  Maithanet could say drowning without meaning death if the the word drowning has more than one meaning. 

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 05:51:04 pm »
This actually came up in the Maithanet-Inrilatas conversation (which this topic is split from). Probably even your suggestion, lockesnow ;).

"They were Drowned... Baptized in the Holy Waters..."

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5722
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 10:15:41 pm »
A contingency plan if Kellhus failed the test at the Tree? Moe never could see past that crossroads, and the shortest path ended, once again, in a dead end. Did he sit around and wait for this last hope, knowing that it was the true shortest path? Seems unlikely.

This is actually conjecture - I've offered, what I think is, a fairly decent argument a handful of times across threads. Hifanat (Moenghus' Cishaurim messenger in TWP) tells Kellhus that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus offers simple corroboration when Kellhus suggests that Moenghus did not see farther than the Test of the Tree and Moenghus acts surprised when Kellhus tells his father that he grasped the Thought... when clearly a book before Moenghus had told Kellhus through Hifanat that Kellhus would grasp the Thought.


Ehh I never really liked that train of thought, maybe because it sounds too convenient? I'm not really sure why, but I just don't like it.

I much prefer locke's idea that Moe never intended Kell to make it through the war. That he thought the Fanim would crush the Three Seas, the Cish would dominate that SS, and that Moe himself would somehow end up Aspect Emporer. If it had gone that way, then Maithanet could have easily transferred the power of the Shriah to the Fanim and the new Emporer would have more time to unite Earwa. Maybe even get Zeum (wishful thinking).

But then his son, by some twist of fate (or divine interference), didn't die at the Tree like he was supposed to. So Moe ran off to hide in his Mansion so that he could try to convince Kell to join him, or at least learn what caused his view of TTT/Probability trance to fail. After that, kill him, rejoin the war effort and continue whatever his plans where.

One of the other conditions of possibility.

Crtha

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2013, 09:12:43 am »
But then his son, by some twist of fate (or divine interference), didn't die at the Tree like he was supposed to.
By the time of his death Moe has discovered nothing to contradict the Prime Assertion (TDTCB). 
Khellhus is the first thing to defy his conditioning, and even this can be attributed to TTT outgrowing it's inceptor.  For TTT's purpose, K is the only option, Maitha is dwarfed by a proper dunyain.

If Moe had time to secretly condition Maitha as a half dunyain, so did K. 
Perhaps K's children are more useful, stunted as they are and actually possess the same potential as Maitha. 
Perhaps they are purposefully limited by conditioning so they cannot oppose K.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5722
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2013, 09:01:59 pm »
That is a valid idea. Maybe Kellhus intentionally broke his children to prevent any chance of a power struggle.

Or maybe going for the idiot savant thing. Without being full Dunyain, maybe it was better to strip them or certain aspects of themselves in order for the more useful parts to flourish.

He obviously had some kind of plan for each of his children except Sami... or maybe he was part of the plan to. Hard to say how much the Whelmings changed them.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Callan S.

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Warrior-Profit
  • Posts: 671
    • View Profile
    • Philosopher Gamer
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2013, 12:50:57 am »
Always wonder how Ishmael functioned at all (with all the potential coniving) because the same questions come to mind for their as well.

Also clearly a heart beat of hesitation on Mathenets side clearly wasn't enough to qualify as a peculiarity. Or it did, but the window of opportunity was closing for Moe, so he worked with what he got.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 05:33:12 pm »
If Moe had time to secretly condition Maitha as a half dunyain, so did K. 

Invalid, neh?

Kellhus has spent twenty years managing the Great Chain of Empire in preparation of the (second) Great Ordeal. Moenghus spent thirty years skulking in secret, unencumbered by the necessities of rule. Kellhus has had to work to convince people to "respekt ma authorita" and, as Esmenet notes, that only works in his presence or by invoking his name. Moenghus, even if he was all-powerful among the Cishaurim, appears to have done little that wasn't culturally condoned or socially corroborated.

I don't believe that Kellhus had the same amount of free time to expending in molding his children a la Maithanet.

That is a valid idea. Maybe Kellhus intentionally broke his children to prevent any chance of a power struggle.

Or maybe going for the idiot savant thing. Without being full Dunyain, maybe it was better to strip them or certain aspects of themselves in order for the more useful parts to flourish.

He obviously had some kind of plan for each of his children except Sami... or maybe he was part of the plan to. Hard to say how much the Whelmings changed them.

They are tools in Kellhus' End Game?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2013, 06:15:33 pm »
Just thought I'd bump the current topic, lest it be lost in the deluge of my Holy Water ;).