Who (or what) created Eärwa?

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« on: May 29, 2013, 05:53:24 pm »
Quote from: Francis Buck
For the record, I still haven't read TWLW (I know, I know) but I'm not overly concerned about spoilers in this case.

I'm curious what everybody's opinion on this question is though. From what little we know of the Outside and the Gods therein, it seems to me that they're more like a "part of the whole" that is Bakker's universe. Despite being very powerful, it seems odd to me that they'd be capable of actually creating worlds and the lifeforms to inhabit them, or even that they'd really be interested in doing so (at least based upon their apparent "personalities", if such a word applies). I'm assuming we haven't actually been clued in to this at all? Or have we? If not, will we ever?

I know people have mentioned the idea that Eärwa is in-fact the "center" of the Bakkerverse, which I suppose would kind of explain why all this cosmic shit is going down there instead of some other planet. Are there hints of any beings "greater" than the Gods from the Outside? Is Fate another God, or just a manifestation of the universe itself?

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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 05:53:34 pm »
Quote from: Ajokli
I'm not 100% certain but I believe that another unmentioned race visited the planet and oozed black goo that created intelligent life. Bakker has been keeping the title a secret because it might concern Earwa 5 thousand years in the future where they send a team of Nonmen, Men, and Sranc to investigate a planet that holds the key to our origins.

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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 05:53:42 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
For my money, I'll go with evolution.  The gods seem to have evolved alongside men, whatever they were when the non-men held sway.
I think Earwa is a planetary topos, it's important cuz it's where two universes bleed into each other causally.
Mebe its the non-men and men who are the real aliens.

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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 05:53:49 pm »
Quote from: Francis Buck
Quote from: Ajokli
I'm not 100% certain but I believe that another unmentioned race visited the planet and oozed black goo that created intelligent life. Bakker has been keeping the title a secret because it might concern Earwa 5 thousand years in the future where they send a team of Nonmen, Men, and Sranc to investigate a planet that holds the key to our origins.

Yes, yes, from the black ooze flows all things. All things must flow.

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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 05:53:56 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
There will no doubt be some form of occlusion going on. Perhaps Earwa was created in an act of occlusion - something created because of actions unseen by the god things. That's why the gods are so judgemental of mankind. Also maybe why men have souls - they were given them by accident, something occuring in the blindspot of the gods.

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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:03 pm »
Quote from: anor277
It's hard for me to accept that the Outside of Earwa extends beyond the planet.  The Inchoroi boast of crossing an interstellar void, light-year upon light-year, and the Outside is supposed to be present there also?

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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:11 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
I dunno.  Depends if the inchies travelled because of damnation or just for laughs at first.

It is interesting that Bakker's mythology doesn't have a creation story.  Every ancient gods/myth cycle I can think of does.  And a flood.  No floods. :(

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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:21 pm »
Quote from: Borric
They first encountered sorcery in Earwa, we know that for sure.
So we can assume other worlds have no sorcery? .
So yeah, I’d go with Earwa being a topos of some kind.

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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:28 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Quote from: Curethan
I dunno.  Depends if the inchies travelled because of damnation or just for laughs at first.

It is interesting that Bakker's mythology doesn't have a creation story.  Every ancient gods/myth cycle I can think of does.  And a flood.  No floods. :(

Wait until Unholy Consult or the unnamed trilogy.

The final line of the series as Kellhus drops to his knees upon a beach: "You maniacs! You blew it up!" Cue a description of the Statue of Liberty.

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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:35 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: anor277
It's hard for me to accept that the Outside of Earwa extends beyond the planet.  The Inchoroi boast of crossing an interstellar void, light-year upon light-year, and the Outside is supposed to be present there also?
I don't think so as well. I think it's outside of all that space as well. And yet it has ties to/is close to Earwa.

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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:42 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
I think the Outside is another universe/layer of this universe that meaningfully interacts with the mundane universe but only overlays enough for the interaction to go both ways on Earwa, thus why it's a world the Consult is so interested in and why sorcery is only possible there.

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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:48 pm »
Quote from: Madness
It is interesting that we've not encountered any creation myths...

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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2013, 05:54:55 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
It is interesting that we've not encountered any creation myths...

That is interesting...

I mean, I assume that the Fanim believe The God created the world and that the Inrithi believe something similar, but we've never really been told that have we?

And one would think that the Nonmen would have a creation myth too...

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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2013, 05:55:02 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
a question that's been harping on me, are ciphrang damned? do they endure damnation?

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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 05:55:09 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Well, there's the Angelic Ciphrang thing[/b]:

Quote
Damnation is not local. There is a right and wrong way to believe in Eärwa, which means that entire nations will be damned. Since the question of just who will be saved and who will be damned is a cornerstone of The Aspect-Emperor’s plot, there’s not much more that I can say.

The caprice of the Outside (where the distinction between subject and object is never clear) is such that those rare souls who walk its ways and return never seem to agree on the nature of what they have seen. Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.

I would hazard that this is just short of explicitly saying that demonic Ciphrang (those that can be summoned and trapped in the World) are Damned?

This has bothered me ever since Bakker dropped this little nugget. Its chiefly what inspired the thoughts that an Absolution of sorts was possible in Earwa's reality, that all was not damnation.

Are Ciphrang either just the most holy or most damned souls? Ciphrang = Angels/Fallen Angels?

Angelic Ciphrang?!?! What happens if one gets into the world?!