What is the No God?

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« on: June 01, 2013, 06:47:02 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
Past ideas:

1. An AI
2. A collection of souls
3. A break between the watcher and watched
4. Some kind of singularity, similar to 3.
5. Someone from Earwa's past.

Also, why did the No God have to take the field? Why couldn't they have just sent it across the ocean and let the still borns pile up until the Inside was closed.

eta: added theory mentioned below

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 06:47:13 pm »
Quote from: Swense
While I have no idea about the first four, I think it was arrogance. The North had fallen, the world was crumbling and what could possibly touch the No-God? The Three Seas were after all much less important at that period so they couldn't have judged it to be a particular threat that required extra support.

Alternatively, the Consult has pathetically little control over what the No-God does once the No-God comes into the world. So essentially, it wanted to go South and they couldn't stop it.

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 06:47:21 pm »
Quote from: Li'l Mog
Don't forget theory number five, that it was somebody from Earwa's long and tragic history. I've seen speculation that the actual voice asking the questions is potentially Nau-Cayuti, or even the severed head of Cu'jara-Cinmoi, somehow preserved after the battle where he was slain. I am not sure how that would work, or why the Inchoroi would have held on to the head of their hated enemy (keep him aware of how broken his people had become, maybe?) or why the Consult in general would have wanted to use Nau-Cayuti in particular, but I include it here for the sake of contemplative completeness.

With regards to the three above ideas, of it functioning as an AI, a collection, a break, I'm not sure those are mutually exclusive. It seems strange that something that only appears to want to understand what it is would be trying to kill everything. If it were a collection of souls acting through an artificial intelligence, that might work. That way, the souls could be bound to that intelligence and its directives (move south, kill world etc.) yet still be aware enough to be confused and demanding answers. I'm not sure exactly how the break between watcher and watched might work, but then again the No-God's carapace was studded with chorae, so perhaps they had some affect beyond merely protecting the No-God from magic.

One more question though. If the No-God was a magical construct that utilized souls, shouldn't those souls have been banished to the Outside due to their proximity to the eleven chorae? I mean, we know that the ciphrang salt when they come into contact with the chorae, same as sorcerers, but the Wight-in-the-Mountain did not, and was only affected by the chorae due to Mimara's Judging Eye. So did the No-God have its own frame of reference that protected it from the aporeotic magic or the chorae? Is there any indication that devices of sorcery fail when they encounter the chorae?

As for the No-God going south, Swense's idea makes a great deal of sense. Is there any indication that the No-God itself wants to kill everything? When Kellhus is confronted by Aurang, he does say that the No-God blames Aurang for his failures during the Apocalypse. So would the No-God have actually lead the crusade against humanity, or would Aurang have merely been organizing the Consult forces as they in turn fled from the No-God?

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 06:47:29 pm »
Quote from: BargiltheDestroyer
I believe the translated Cunoroi name for the No-God is The Angel of Endless Hunger.  Now, this can obviously be an allegorical kind of name, as the No-God does "consume" entire nations in its genocidal wars, but I wonder if the No-God is actually eating something, maybe the souls of the peoples it kills or their connections to the Outside?  Perhaps the No-God is not an immortal entity, but one that must continually consume the lives in order to live or operate.  I believe that Anaxophus or however you spell it, saved the core of his army during the fall of Kyraneas, so perhaps the No-God was desperate for souls and decided to enter the fray.

Or perhaps the codex is right and that after 11 years of war, the Scylvendi and Weapon Races were depleted enough that the No-God decided to give battle in order to finally finish the war. So impatience and all that.

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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 06:47:36 pm »
Quote from: Twooars
Quote from: BargiltheDestroyer
...must continually consume the lives in order to live or operate...

Galactus!

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 06:47:45 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Angel?  hmm. 

We know from the aspect emperor books that gods like to nom nom souls. 

non-diagetically, Bakker has stated that Angels can't exist inward, only in the outside (but demons and gods can exist inward and in the outside, so are they different, the same, or variations?)

If demons nom nom souls and if Gods nom nom souls then perhaps its reasonable to assume that Angels nom nom souls as well?  This seems a particularly good assumption since the only name we have for an Earwa Angel references eating, "Angel of Endless Hunger".

So perhaps the No God is the first Angel brought Inward--normally they cannot exist in such a plane, in such a place of damnation (aside crackpot, Inward/Earwa IS Hell! everyday existence IS the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth).  The chorae help anchor it in place, the carapace contains it, and they keep it alive on souls.

Perhaps the No God took the field because it was starving to death?  What a great way to control your ultimate powerful weapon.  It accomplishes your goal of closing the world, but it effectively self annihilates by being too good at its job.  We know the No God nom nomed Anasurimbor Celmomas, so in taking the field it was also feasting...

***
new direction:

Perhaps the No-God is a soul-variant of the nuclear principle? 

Rather than gaining power by enriching uranium and splitting the atom, the Inchoroi harness power by enriching souls and splitting the soul.  The atom is one of the core units of the physical world, what if the Soul is the equivalent of the atom in the spiritual world? 

By splitting the soul-atom, the Inchoroi are capable of producing an incredible power akin to cold fusion, but like a nuclear reaction, such a power is inherently unstable and must be strictly controlled and contained--like in a carapace with chorae anchors.

Perhaps the no god took the field because he was getting close to meltdown.  The inchoroi didn't want the "nuclear fallout" anywhere near holy min uroikas and sent him into the field so that when he did go boom it was far away from them. 

Then, on the fields of Mengedda, Anaxophus tried to fire the heron spear and it didn't work, of course, Akka's dream was true.  But, in a major coincidence, around the same time the No God went kaboom, just before coming upon Seswatha and the King.  Seswatha's incipient wards protected him from the fallout.   Since it makes for a worthless story to say that he just went boom, and since they had the heron spear and since they both stood to gain unfathomable power by being the slayers of the no god both men were incentivized to tell the tale that they killed the  NG.

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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 06:47:55 pm »
Quote from: Swense
The problem with the whole angel thing is that the Nonmen also have called the Inchoroi "Flesh Angles" in the False Sun. So I think the Nonmen just have something they like about perverting angel imagery.

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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 06:48:17 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
I pretty much assumed the No-God was the culmination of Tekne/sorcery fusion which was necessary for the Inchoroi to begin shutting the World against the Outside.

The name "Whirlwind" has a lot of implications as well. Bakker recently used that word to describe science itself (and we all know what he thinks science is going to do our precious intentional concepts...)

Make of that what you will.

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 06:48:24 pm »
Quote from: BargiltheDestroyer
I believe Aurang or Aurax is called the Angel of Deceit in some translated Non-Man, so as Swense says the whole angel thing may just be a Non-Man naming convention.

Also, I don't remember anything about angels being brought up.  I thought the Outside was composed of

Ciphrang:  Demons and lesser agencies.  Like to chomp on the eternal spirits of people.

gods:  Greater agencies of the Outside, usually personifying some kind of concept, like Birth or War.  Been said to be essentially bigger Ciphrang.

The God of Gods:  Kind of hazy on what exactly the God is and what effect it has on Earwa.

So where would angels fit into all this?

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 06:48:31 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: BargiltheDestroyer
So where would angels fit into all this?

Right angels fit in at ninety degrees, nyuck nyuck.

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 06:48:40 pm »
Quote from: Swense
Bakker has established there are Angelic Ciphrang, who presumably provide the opposite function as demonic Ciphrang. Who knows if you can actively summon them, though?

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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 06:48:49 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Well, Mimara might have... Faith Power?!

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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2013, 06:48:57 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Pretty sure the "Angel" thing just signifies that the subject came down from the stars. Although I would also speculate that the "Black Heaven" is also a title of the No-God.

I got the impression that once activated/awakened/summoned (all these seem to be used at different points in the text) that the No-God is not commanded by any in the Consult. Aurang seems to fear its disapproval. And there's that one phrase in a What Has Come Before section "To save their souls, they made themselves slaves.". Or something like that.

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 06:49:04 pm »
Quote from: Madness
There's a post somewhere on Three Seas where Bakker explicitly says the Void (which the Inchoroi flew across) and the Outside (where Ciphrang are from) are two different things. Though, I've not at all discounted the possibility of... other species showing up.

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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 06:49:13 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Alien vs. Inchoroi?