Mimara

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MrGanondorf

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« Reply #120 on: October 08, 2015, 01:32:13 pm »

OK, so I came across this passage while in another discussion and would like to know your guys thoughts.

Quote
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens. For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation. Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child … And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow. She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching her knees for anguish … For she sees that she is good—and this she cannot bear.

OK, we've deduced through Kellhus and Serwe that when halo's are seen it because of the belief that one is holy. Kellhus doesn't see his own halo's til much later when he finally believes that he is, or crazy, take a pick. Anyway, when Mimara see her reflection and she bears a halo, its the Judging Eye/God(?)  looking at her.  Why is she holy? When so much has been stated that women's spiritual value is less and not worthy, we see a direct contradiction of that through the Judging Eye. Its a theme I keep going back to, and its like no matter how much someone convinces me otherwise, I believe women to be most important to this story, in the end.

Also,

Quote
And he seemed with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

Quote
Somewhere distant, almost too far to touch, men cried out. Martemus watched the Prophet turn his head, reach back witha golden-haloed hand, and seize a flying arm, which bore a fist, which gripped a long and silvery knife.

There are just two examples, but, everytime Kellhus's halo are mentioned they are gold. These are seen through the eyes of humans. When we see Mimara's through the Judging Eye hers are silver. I'd love to see Kellhus through the Judging eye, but, is this a clue that Kellhus's haloes are false? Please, anything you guys could add would be greatly appreciated.

i cant think of anything more than the reader is being set up for some revelation we cant currently infer. Bakker could use one color halo to prove the other false, or tell is they are diff kinds of holy, or that both are deceived. I dont have a clue. Mimara could be holy to Yatwer but damned to Ajokli or something. Maybe Kellhus will play his viramsata long enough that we will see his gold halos (false holiness) switch to silver halos (really real holy). Maybe Mim is just a way of confirming the IF for the reader. More possibilities?

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #121 on: October 08, 2015, 01:32:45 pm »

OK, so I came across this passage while in another discussion and would like to know your guys thoughts.

Quote
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens. For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation. Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child … And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow. She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching her knees for anguish … For she sees that she is good—and this she cannot bear.

OK, we've deduced through Kellhus and Serwe that when halo's are seen it because of the belief that one is holy. Kellhus doesn't see his own halo's til much later when he finally believes that he is, or crazy, take a pick. Anyway, when Mimara see her reflection and she bears a halo, its the Judging Eye/God(?)  looking at her.  Why is she holy? When so much has been stated that women's spiritual value is less and not worthy, we see a direct contradiction of that through the Judging Eye. Its a theme I keep going back to, and its like no matter how much someone convinces me otherwise, I believe women to be most important to this story, in the end.

Also,

Quote
And he seemed with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

Quote
Somewhere distant, almost too far to touch, men cried out. Martemus watched the Prophet turn his head, reach back witha golden-haloed hand, and seize a flying arm, which bore a fist, which gripped a long and silvery knife.

There are just two examples, but, everytime Kellhus's halo are mentioned they are gold. These are seen through the eyes of humans. When we see Mimara's through the Judging Eye hers are silver. I'd love to see Kellhus through the Judging eye, but, is this a clue that Kellhus's haloes are false? Please, anything you guys could add would be greatly appreciated.

i cant think of anything more than the reader is being set up for some revelation we cant currently infer. Bakker could use one color halo to prove the other false, or tell is they are diff kinds of holy, or that both are deceived. I dont have a clue. Mimara could be holy to Yatwer but damned to Ajokli or something. Maybe Kellhus will play his viramsata long enough that we will see his gold halos (false holiness) switch to silver halos (really real holy). Maybe Mim is just a way of confirming the IF for the reader. More possibilities?

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2015, 01:33:22 pm »

OK, so I came across this passage while in another discussion and would like to know your guys thoughts.

Quote
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens. For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation. Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child … And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow. She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching her knees for anguish … For she sees that she is good—and this she cannot bear.

OK, we've deduced through Kellhus and Serwe that when halo's are seen it because of the belief that one is holy. Kellhus doesn't see his own halo's til much later when he finally believes that he is, or crazy, take a pick. Anyway, when Mimara see her reflection and she bears a halo, its the Judging Eye/God(?)  looking at her.  Why is she holy? When so much has been stated that women's spiritual value is less and not worthy, we see a direct contradiction of that through the Judging Eye. Its a theme I keep going back to, and its like no matter how much someone convinces me otherwise, I believe women to be most important to this story, in the end.

Also,

Quote
And he seemed with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

Quote
Somewhere distant, almost too far to touch, men cried out. Martemus watched the Prophet turn his head, reach back witha golden-haloed hand, and seize a flying arm, which bore a fist, which gripped a long and silvery knife.

There are just two examples, but, everytime Kellhus's halo are mentioned they are gold. These are seen through the eyes of humans. When we see Mimara's through the Judging Eye hers are silver. I'd love to see Kellhus through the Judging eye, but, is this a clue that Kellhus's haloes are false? Please, anything you guys could add would be greatly appreciated.

i cant think of anything more than the reader is being set up for some revelation we cant currently infer. Bakker could use one color halo to prove the other false, or tell is they are diff kinds of holy, or that both are deceived. I dont have a clue. Mimara could be holy to Yatwer but damned to Ajokli or something. Maybe Kellhus will play his viramsata long enough that we will see his gold halos (false holiness) switch to silver halos (really real holy). Maybe Mim is just a way of confirming the IF for the reader. More possibilities?

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #123 on: December 18, 2015, 07:50:15 pm »
i can't remember if we covered this--maybe Mimara's baby is Kellhus' child?  she could be deceived about this since a dunyain baby reportedly takes more than 9 months to hatch and Kellhus could have whelmed her

Alia

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« Reply #124 on: December 19, 2015, 09:33:46 am »
i can't remember if we covered this--maybe Mimara's baby is Kellhus' child?  she could be deceived about this since a dunyain baby reportedly takes more than 9 months to hatch and Kellhus could have whelmed her

Yeah, I believe it's already been mentioned somewhere on the forum.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #125 on: December 29, 2015, 02:40:25 pm »
Seems like a good idea MG, and I can't recall it being mentioned, but it could be hidden somewhere. If it comes out looking like a bashrag then we'll know it was.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Uncle Holy

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« Reply #126 on: January 23, 2016, 04:19:01 pm »
Personally, I always took all this talk of 'halos' as just extra craziness. Serwe was never the sanest person. She and Martemus could easily have allowed their reverence for Kellhus to literally cloud their sight. But it is weird that they both see the same thing. Kellhus admitting that he could also see halos around his hands, is weird too, unless he's as crazy as Moe said he is. A crazy/delusional full-blooded Dunyain, Yatwer preserve us :)

H

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« Reply #127 on: January 28, 2016, 03:01:53 pm »
Personally, I always took all this talk of 'halos' as just extra craziness. Serwe was never the sanest person. She and Martemus could easily have allowed their reverence for Kellhus to literally cloud their sight. But it is weird that they both see the same thing. Kellhus admitting that he could also see halos around his hands, is weird too, unless he's as crazy as Moe said he is. A crazy/delusional full-blooded Dunyain, Yatwer preserve us :)

There is also the the fact that Serwe sees the halos around the Kellhus-skin-spy's hands.  This means that the halos aren't actually generated by Kellhus, but rather are affixed in the perception of Kellhus, not actually attached to him.  In this way, Kellhus has bought in to his own shit, so he sees his own halos as well.
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locke

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« Reply #128 on: January 28, 2016, 03:59:22 pm »
Yeah the halos are a watcher watched conundrum independent of looker and looked at. As you say they're attached to perception not to person


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Wilshire

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« Reply #129 on: January 29, 2016, 07:24:42 pm »
...a watcher watched conundrum independent of looker and looked a...

 I like this succinct explanation.

Makes me wonder, if Kellhus was somehow successfully replaced long-term with a skin-spy, would it be the crux of whatever metaphysical thing is happening? (presuming for a second that Kellhus is the crux to begin with, and no someone else)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 07:27:29 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Blackstone

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« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2016, 06:41:17 pm »
What is the speculation on Mimara actually learning to use the Gnosis? I was originally thinking that it was ridiculous that Akka was even teaching it to her. A grown person's chances of mastering the language necessary to use the Gnosis is zero (excluding Dunyain intellect of course). But. Now Mimara is on qirri, which seems to increase mental capacity. Will it be enough for her to master the language? Hmmm. Just occurred to me that even if she could, she wouldn't be able to touch Seswatha's heart. Thoughts?
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Bolivar

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« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2016, 10:24:30 pm »
It almost certainly won't happen by the end of this series, maybe in the next one if there's another gap.

Although, with some of the things that have happened, she might not need traditional sorcery to wield magic.

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themerchant

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« Reply #132 on: February 27, 2016, 02:19:43 am »
I think at some point she resolves not to learn it after she sees through the Chorae with the judging eye i believe, she wont even give up her chorae when sranc are chasing them up mountains so Akka can't walk in the air. I believe she no longer wants to learn, can't remember where about it is stated, in WLW somewhere i suspect.

geoffrobro

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« Reply #133 on: February 27, 2016, 02:23:39 am »
Maybe with the judging eye Mimara will be able to salt sorcerers and undo sorcery with a gaze!
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rnblut

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« Reply #134 on: February 28, 2016, 02:18:51 am »
I believe she no longer wants to learn, can't remember where about it is stated, in WLW somewhere i suspect.
I am in the midst of re-reading WLW and in Chapter 6 she indicates not wanting to learn sorcery in the context of trying to figure out who is the father of her baby. (p.183, first edition overlook press).