Mimara

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Wilshire

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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2014, 03:41:25 pm »
If astrology is a thing in Earwa, then I think its probably a gift more directly tied to Gods, and not likely to be something one can 'learn'. Like seeing the Onta, except the ability is almost directly tied to being sanctioned by one god or another.

If not, then Kellhus would be able to use this astrological prediction mechanism to provide a counterpoint/affirmation to his Probability Trance/TTT, and this would make him nigh unstoppable and infallible.
I don't like that, so I say he can't learn it because some God won't let him :)
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locke

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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2014, 03:07:50 am »
and if Esmenet's mother had taught her, she perhaps could have used her ability to discern the truth or falsity of Kellhus from the stars.  Ergo, the Dunyain conditioning her mother would have to make sure that they broke the matrilineal information sharing and kept Esmenet in ignorance.

Crtha

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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2014, 03:21:23 am »
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2014, 11:33:52 am »
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.

Scott is a tricky bastard, he has been misdirecting us with all these historical, philosophical and religious references from the very beginning. t's obvious now that his one true influence has always been Beverly Hills 90210.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:35:59 am by SkiesOfAzel »

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2014, 01:47:54 pm »
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.

Nice.  So Cayuti is Kellhus distant cousin?

This whole thing would be simpler if Seswatha was just a witch and Celmomas made a babies with her.  Witches are taboo, so Seswatha edits all the memories and puts them in a mummified heart.

Wilshire

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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2014, 02:56:37 pm »
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.

Haha, "simple". Thats an entertaining way to look at it. We know that there was a lot of infidelity,  why not from Celmomas? Assuming he's boning his brother's wife isn't a far leap, and eloquently explains the situation within the bounds we believe the story is operating in.

Not sure if that was suppose to be a joke or not, but either way, very nice :).
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Crtha

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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2014, 02:00:18 am »
Anasurimbors seem historically disposed towards impregnating other people's spouses, from the first to the latest.

However, the intention seems to be that he was Nau Cayuti's younger brother.  He is mentioned as having been present at the Fields of Eleneot (where Celmomas died) and he was definitely the heir to Kinuiri.  The text also mentions that his uncle was at Ishual (an early victim of the plague).  That kinda points away from him being Celmomas' brother to me.

The fact that he fled to Ishual after the death of Celmomas also presents an obvious explanation as to why the seal on the map case at Sauglish was broken too, now that I think about it.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 02:22:46 am by Crtha »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2014, 02:43:17 am »
But the north was overrun by then. It is unlikely that he was able to get to the map. But if Ganrelka knew of Ishual, how many knew? I find it hard to believe a secret like that could really be kept by more than one or two people. If all/several Anasurimbor's knew about it, then it wouldn't have survived for so long.
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Crtha

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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2014, 05:24:26 am »
Celmomas fell at the Fields of Eleneot in 2146, Sauglish was overrun in 2147.
Ganrelka likely fell back to Ishual directly after Celmomas died and the might of Kinuiri was broken.  Seswatha could have told him where to find the map; I believe only Celmomas and Seswatha knew of it.
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locke

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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2014, 06:16:17 am »
if the map case were open, the parchment would have been destroyed from two millenium of deterioration at the hands of the elements.

Ganrelka is also older than Nau Cayuti, and was born only fourteen years after Celmomas, iirc. also iirc, Nau Cayuti was born when Celmomas was in his forties.

Crtha

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« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2014, 07:06:14 am »
if the map case were open, the parchment would have been destroyed from two millenium of deterioration at the hands of the elements.

Not necessarily.  It's in a library that was run by sorcerers and is surrounded by enchantments.  Also, the seal is broken not the map case and again, it's probably enchanted.

Ganrelka is also older than Nau Cayuti, and was born only fourteen years after Celmomas, iirc. also iirc, Nau Cayuti was born when Celmomas was in his forties.

Sorry, I meant to say Ganrelka is the older brother.  Nau-Cayuti is described as the youngest son of Celmomas, implying elder brothers, which would make one of them the natural successor.

  Celmomas II: 2089-2146
  Ganrelka II: 2104-2147
  Nau-Cayuti: 2119-2140

Which means Celmomas would have been 15 when Ganrelka was born and 30 when Nau-Cayuti was born.  Having a legitimate child at 15 does seem unlikely, but its possible.  Note that Nau-Cayuti was born of Celmomas' favourite wife, Sharal.

There's also the other Anasurimbor line (Mygella and Nimeric) - but Aorsi fell in 2136.  (Mimara could potentially be a scion of that line too.)

Alternatively, Scott just screwed the dates up a bit and it escaped editing.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:17:46 am by Crtha »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2014, 01:25:37 pm »
Thanks for bringing all those dates to the table, it provides clarity.

if the map case were open, the parchment would have been destroyed from two millenium of deterioration at the hands of the elements.

Not necessarily.  It's in a library that was run by sorcerers and is surrounded by enchantments.  Also, the seal is broken not the map case and again, it's probably enchanted.
Invoking "magic!" here is pretty legitimate, especially considering Celmomas intrusted the map to Seswatha. A simple mundane protection as lame as a seal would not be sufficient to someone of his caliber.

Ganrelka is also older than Nau Cayuti, and was born only fourteen years after Celmomas, iirc. also iirc, Nau Cayuti was born when Celmomas was in his forties.

Sorry, I meant to say Ganrelka is the older brother. 
I made that same mistake. Older brother :P

Which means Celmomas would have been 15 when Ganrelka was born and 30 when Nau-Cayuti was born.  Having a legitimate child at 15 does seem unlikely, but its possible. 
If this was mundane medieval era where the average lifespan wasnt particularly long then I would agree, but its not. We have lots of instances of people living well into their 80's and far beyond. There probably wasn't a huge press to have offspring at such a young age. Like you said, its possible, but I doubt it.

Note that Nau-Cayuti was born of Celmomas' favourite wife, Sharal.
Very important. This points to either polygamous marriages or multiple mistresses, and if the High King has them, then you know others have them as well.

 Depending on what makes the Anasurimbor line special, be it blood (literally blood, or genetics) or the Name itself, "an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" could point to a vast number of people.
There's also the other Anasurimbor line (Mygella and Nimeric) - but Aorsi fell in 2136.  (Mimara could potentially be a scion of that line too.)

Alternatively, Scott just screwed the dates up a bit and it escaped editing.

There are still so many questions, and I would not be surprised if a date got messed up here and there. Its probably difficult to sort through a timeline of 4000+ Earwa years that was developed over 18+ years of Bakker's life.
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locke

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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2014, 03:25:38 pm »
I believe Sorweel's chorae comes from the other Anasurimbor line, because it doesn't make sense for it to be from the kuniuri line.

Wilshire

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« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2014, 06:29:23 pm »
I find it odd that Sorweel didn't have his own chorae... He was "King" of the chorae horde after all.  Also, other than assuming Yatwer likes irony, why would she give him a chorae owned by an Anasurimbor?
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Crtha

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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2014, 10:43:57 pm »
I doubt the successor kings unit of which Sorweel was a part would be allowed their chorae by the apperati.  They were basically hostages, after all.
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