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I don't know why I do this* but I thought I would take the couple trends that have emerged from the Excerpt - The Unholy Consult, Chapter One thread and create individual threads for them.

*Sometimes individuals aren't paying the attention to unrelated threads as the rest of us are and I'd like to maximize our community engagement.

So Saccarees & the Dunyain of the New Empire...

Does Apperens Saccarees mastery of Metagnostic Cants mean he is, in fact, Dunyain and that there are others secreted among the Kellian Empire at Kellhus' behest?

OR

Is this another case where Bakker classically understates an idea, Saccarees only being mentioned as the first of humankind to use the Metagnosis and human Metagnostic sorcerers will abound in The Unholy Consult?

After all, mastery by one and communicative dissemination is the staple of human innovation from tool use on... Perhaps after Kellhus figured Metagnostic sorcery out, it was sufficiently easy to teach to the Mandate and anyone else he chose.

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I can't recall.  Is there any passage where Saccarees' physical appearance is described?

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I can't recall.  Is there any passage where Saccarees' physical appearance is described?

I do not believe so, but there is a passage in WLW where he pulls a very Dunyain social move on the grandmaster of the Vokalati.  Could be a strong hint.  Could be a herring.

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Wilshire's WLW quotes from the Unholy Consult[/u][/url] thread:

"No Schoolmen was as famed as Apperens Saccarees, who had stood high among the Empire's Exalt-Ministers. His voice proved a tonic for the Arm of the South's nightly war-councils, for it carried both the authority of the Aspect-Emperor and the promise of tactical acumen."
Pg. 456

"Could it be?" Carindusu asked in derision. "Have the fabled Dreams of the First Apocalypse led the illustrious Saccarees astray?"
"Yes," the Mandate Grandmaster replied, his honesty so genuine, his humility so reminiscent of their Lord-and-God, that Carindusu found himself shamed before his peers a third time.
Pg. 460

Pretty sure these are the only two Saccarees quotes that highlight his Dunyainness.

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Pretty sure these are the only two Saccarees quotes that highlight his Dunyainness.

Well to be honest, I did not recognize the name when it was first brought up. I just went scanning through the last few Ordeal chapters until I saw his name. There could very well be earlier descriptions of him, Dunyainness and physical, that I didn't find (I wasn't really looking for it at the time, just trying to help out Triskele's theory about Saccarees).

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Lol, no, I was condoning your research. I believe there are only five explicit references to Saccarees in WLW - not counting the battle at the Five Fingers.

The first when the Ordeal splits into the four armies, where he's described as the first Schoolman to learn Metagnostic Cants.

The bulk three, including the two you quoted, are in the Carindusu/Saccarees verbal fencing in the war councils of the Army of the South.

The fifth is describing how Saccarees is being ostracized by all Schoolman for rumoured fratricide and brooding because of it -  two things that are very undunyain-like.

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Brooding doesn't seem a very efficient way to achieve your goals amongst world born, indeed.

How old is Saccarees supposed to be?

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fratricide, patricide, close enough

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True but being ostracized from your community of peers, not so much.

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What do you mean by that?
Moe was exiled and he was dunyain.

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How does it benefit a Dunyain within a human population though?

So far the only claim to flame Saccarees as Dunyain is his ability, as the first, to handle the abstraction of Metagnostic sorcery and the herrings you highlighted in the quotes, Wilshire.

Kellhus is the Lord-and-God of Earwa. Saccarees is looking like the sore loser in the corner...

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Oh I see. I couldn't figure out where you were going with that.

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps he is specifically trying to not be Kell. Hiding in plain sight wouldn't work if he was a complete god figure like Kell. If Kell was trying to hide dunyain in his army he wouldn't want anyone to know about it.

A weak theory though.

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Oh I see. I couldn't figure out where you were going with that.
A weak theory though.

Was this directed at me?

For the record, I am not at all confident that Saccarees is Dunyain.  I think it a possibility, but it could be a mistake or a herring. 

Bakker lead a bit of a rope a dope w/ Sarl and Soma in TJE on someone being a skin spy.  In hindsight, it couldn't be clearer about Soma, but I was deceived at the time.   Never certain.  Uncertain.  As I am now. 

It's not just that I think Saccarees might be Dunyain.  It's also that I have a terribly hard time accepting that all of Ishual has been destroyed.  But it's possible.

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Nah, at me, Trisk. And the weak theory part was actually referencing Wilshire's own post, I believe, trying to salvage a Dunyain theory. Not everything is about you .

Many think Saccarees Dunyain... Metagnostic abstraction might simply elude the weak minded.

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Yeah Madness is right, I was acknowledging that I was grasping at straws to try and answer his question. It was the best I could come up with though, so I posted it anyways.

I think the idea that there are Dunyain hidden in the army to be an entertaining one, and I'm certainly not trying to discount its possibility.