Dunyain and Nonmen

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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2013, 07:53:17 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
Seriously though, Wilshire, I'm basically just spouting fantasies lol. Thought out theory... or madness?
Didnt mean to offend, just messing around.
Here, though, theory and madness are pretty much the same thing.

Something progressive? 2000 years of isolation and then they suddenly decide to be progressive and take over the Nonmen. That seems like a bit of a snap judgment, which they are not typically prone too.

Sorcery: Why awaken the gods to you when it would be so much easier to hide. Damnation or not, the Dunyain of yore must have known something of the gods. They probably just decided it would further isolate them. Wouldn't want any pesky scrying, in or out. It would just be distracting. And with goals that span millennium, distractions are not what you want.

Inchoroi: I guess I could have over stepped that statement. Still though, who power in Earwa is the one that everyone sees? Its always someone behind the throne, and I took Aurang's statement to mean much more than simply having a few spies following around Nil'.


You dont seem interested in this topic though so I guess i'll cease and desist.

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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2013, 07:53:25 pm »
Quote from: Madness
You're mistaking something ambiguous in my writing for apathy and offense, I think.

I'm absolutely interested in this, and really most any TSA topic. I wasn't offended in the least, just thought you shouldn't downplay the strength of your own theory in comparison to mine.

I think that the mediating moment - if all is as it seems, which is increasingly unlikely - is Moenghus the Elder leaving Ishual, when Sranc stumble upon the mountain fastness fifty years ago, to assess the threat of exposure. He returns to the Gates and allegedly is turned away because he's been tainted by the outside world.

This is apparently a new event - exiling one of their membership. Pretty novel.

After this, in terms of novelty enchroaching on the Project, there is then a flurry of activity, unlike Ishual has seen in 2000 years. They send one of their best, a prodigy even among the Dunyain according to Bakker, to simply murder his father and then be useless to the Project. Or when the world came knocking, they realized that they can't ignore variables they are ignorant of that might exist, that affect them and their world even in their mundane isolation - like, say, the Outside?

Lol, don't let my wacky communication make you feel like I'm not interested... Probably no one is more avidly following speculation here at TSA than myself.

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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2013, 07:53:35 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Outside sure, discovery sure. But it took Kell the apprehension of the consult, war, and sorcery to realize TTT. Assuming, as I do, that TTT is the inevitable choke point, the nexus of events, that the probability trance always leads (when all variables are know), I still dont see the dunyain taking over the Nonmen. Not in 20 years, not in 50. This for a few reasons.

It would take a lot of time for the rest of the Dunyain to reach TTT, mainly based on the assumption that they would have far less exposure, and fewer teachers, than Kell. It took Kell almost his entire journey to reach it, and even then it was something he was actively seeking out since his father was pointing him in that direction.

 If not TTT, then what drove the Dunyain to such extremes (maybe a different definition of TTT), if TTT how did they achieve their understanding and why did it lead them to the Nonmen?


As for sending out their prodigal son, I think this can be explained by Moe's decades headstart. Only a true adept would be able to catch up and destroy him. That, and, perhaps a hope that Moe would have a the slightest weakness in the face of his son who he so desperately sought.

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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2013, 07:53:42 pm »
Quote from: Madness
The Thousandfold Thought is something else entirely, which I'm not attempting to invoke here. I think, actually, that it would be impossible for the Dunyain to realize the Thought simply because of their isolation and their ignorance of all the variables you suggest and more.

However, they exiled a member because he threatened their perspectives... they send another because he threatens their isolation... this begs questions. If the Dunyain have ignored things, which threaten their isolation, have they also ignored things, which are crucial in the algebra of the Logos? The Dunyain of today's Earwa are much different than the Dunyain of two millenia past.

Again, fantasy. I'm basically looking for things, which might make this theory evident, so I'm going to cherry-pick any ambiguity.

You're probably right, after all.

However, all I'm saying is that it would be easy for a Dunyain to manipulate the minds of Nonmen - to create new identities out of fractured psyches.

We really don't know why the Dunyain would do anything - it strikes me as mighty stupid to embody outdated memes that ignore novel, contradictory information, which the Dunyain are explicitly following. We, as the reader, know they are wrong to isolate themselves, if they actually wish to use the Logos to escape circumstance.

What would or did the Dunyain do when they figured that out? It's not dependent on realizing the Thousandfold Thought, which itself accounts for "all" circumstances, apparently, as analogous of the Golden Path.

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« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2013, 07:53:56 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Unless the nonmen are akin to Toydarian from starwars, and mind tricks dont work on them. =P

From what I can tell, magic and the outside are poorly understood in 4000 Earwa as it was in 2000. There isn't a ton of extra knowledge out there that would be new to the current Dunyain that the old would have missed. A lot of this is because of the first apocalypse, which really stalled human development in all things.

Why do we know their isolation was wrong? I submit that it was the correct decision. The dunyain of past knew all the variables. Afterall they witnessed the first apocalypse. They probably made a very informed decision on what was the shortest path to a self-moving soul. And who is to say that their entire purpose was to avoid the world until a self-moving soul was achieved. Perhaps they saw that regardless of which path the world took, their involvement was not necessarily or pertinent.

Though I doubt the Dunyain of yore had the mental capabilities required to obtain TTT or even a proper probability trance as  we see today.

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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2013, 07:54:04 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol damn Toydarian.

If they aren't wrong about isolation, then all Kellhus has accomplished, including the Thousandfold Thought is worthless to the Project.

Whereas, I'd hazard, that Kellhus is as close to a self-moving soul as we've seen thus far.

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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2013, 07:54:12 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Is he really though? Or does he have so much outside stimuli, so much outside influence pressing in onto him even has he pushes out, that he is actually further from The Absolute than any other?

By trying to control everything, he gains nothing. A self-moving soul is not the absolute control of circumstance, but the control of self above all influences. By isolating themselves for so long, the Dunyain have limited the number of variables they need to control to entirely remove themselves form the sphere of influence that is the world, the past, the present, the future, and the outside. Kell must rise above more, because by acting onto more forces, more forces are in turn acting on him.

I also think that Kell is worthless to the Project. Utterly. He is so contaminated, so currupt, so involved in saving the world the the dunyain mission is all but forgotten to him. A true Dunyain does not care about the end of the world, the lives of millions, the fate of the universe, only that they remain outside of everything.

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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2013, 07:54:21 pm »
Quote from: Madness
You have me at a crux...

A self-moving soul comes before any and all circumstance, which might affect it. The God or Gods have been theorized as the self-moving soul, not that that has particular bearing.

This seems to necessitate exposure to those circumstances?

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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2013, 07:54:28 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
The god/gods may be important but my grasp on that particular subject is limited so I've been avoiding it. I agree they could be considered self moving.

Yes I guess it would be rather disappointing to reach some point of absolute knowledge, to master all that is known, only to realize that there is still darkness. Like checking off everything on your to-do list, like for household chores, only to find out you forgot about a whole section of your house.

But I have argued elsewhere that perhaps the Dunyain actually know of this limitation, or at least the Dunyains of old did. Why then the isolation? Because they saw that trying to solve this Absolute equation with every variable would make an answer impossible to find. However, if you ignored some parts of the equation, it allows you to come up with partial answers, partial liberation from the events of before and after. Then, with your new found knowledge, they could go back and solve the rest of their problem, with only the most elusive elements remaining unknown.

Or it was planned as some kind of iterative method, where although there is not enough information to solve it outright, if you assume a value or two for a couple unknowns, you can get an answer. This answer can then be plugged back into your equation and ran again, getting a slightly  more correct answer until you get out the same number you put in. Sorry for the vague math but its the best I could do.

My point I guess is that the Dunyain may have been trying to become self-moving souls in steps:
Step one, mastery of self and past (emotions, thoughts, histories and the like).
Step two, mastery of others (war, politics, other species).
Step three, the metaphysical (god/gods, magic, the outside).

In this way they can solve slightly less complex issues, and then use that base knowledge to help them master the more complex. Slowly controlling everything without being overwhelmed the the shear immensity of their own task. The old Dunyain would have seen this as the shortest path, making a whole population working on one step at a time was seen as faster than creating specialists in every field and then trying to combine knowledge once each individual became a master of a different subject.

Well, in favor of some of your ideas, then I guess its possible the current Dunyain higher-ups may have decided that they had gone as far as possible without more variables and began probing the world for the lost knowledge they would required. Like the Standard Model and the Higgs Boson, they knew something was missing and what it should look like, but they had no real knowledge of what they would find until they had found it.

Wow that got a lot more complex than I originally thought.

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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2013, 07:54:38 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Makes alot of sense actually, Wilshire.

It would be why isolation is paramount until the second step is reached.

Excepting this from TDTCB - Kellhus' perspective:

“The Dünyain have hidden from the world for two millennia, and they would remain hidden, if they could, for all eternity. Yet thirty-one years ago, while I was still but a child, we were discovered by a band of Sranc. The Sranc were easily destroyed, but as a precaution, my father was sent into the wilderness to ascertain the extent of our exposure. When he returned some months later, it was decided that he must be exiled. He’d been contaminated, had become a threat to our mission. Three decades passed, and it was assumed he’d perished.”

The Dünyain frowned. “But then he returned to us, returned in a way that was unprecedented. He sent us dreams.”

“Sorcery,” Cnaüir said.

The Dünyain nodded. “Yes. Although we didn’t know this at the time. We knew only that the purity of our isolation had been polluted, that its source had to be found and eliminated.”

Cnaüir studied the man’s profile, which gently rocked to his horse’s canter. “So you’re an assassin.”

“Yes.”

When Cnaüir was silent, Kellhus continued, “You don’t believe me.”

How could he? How could he believe one who never truly spoke but steered and maneuvered, maneuvered and steered, endlessly?

“I don’t believe you.”

Kellhus turned to the surrounding expanses of grey-green plain. They had passed beyond the rolling pastures of the Kuoti and now crossed the great tablelands of the Jiünati interior. Aside from a small stream ahead and the thin palisade of brush and poplars along its sunken banks, the distances were as bland as an ocean’s. Only the sky, filled with clouds like sailing mountains, possessed depth.

“The Dünyain,” Kellhus said after a time, “have surrendered themselves to the Logos, to what you would call reason and intellect. We seek absolute awareness, the self-moving thought. The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance. And only the Dünyain possess this knowledge, plainsman. The world slumbers, enslaved by its ignorance. Only the Dünyain are awake. Moenghus, my father, threatens this" (TDTCB p383- 384).

We can debate the validity of Kellhus' perspective all day but Kellhus seems to drop much truth with Cnaiur throughout the books, using it it to confound the barbarian with "lies" of truth, as Cnaiur and ourselves pretty much think everything Kellhus says is a lie.

Now, obviously, we've also debated hierarchy in the Dunyain and how much influence Kellhus actually has when he's in Ishual. We know of at least that Pragma and Initiate are two of the titles taken by the Dunyain.

Does this denote as well a hierarchy of information availability?

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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2013, 07:54:47 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Into the realm of almost pure speculation now. A fun place to go, since we've gone about as far as possible without.

First though, based purely on the text you quoted, it would seem they dunyain don't want/need all the variables to complete their project. But that would really be an anticlimactic end to this conversation.

I agree all of Kell's words are subject to some debate of validity, but like you said we could debate it all day and I dont find that particularly interesting. For this purpose I think I'm just going to say that this passage is truthful.

To me there must be some kind of hierarchy. There simply must be, if nothing other than age and accumulation of experience separating out the casts. Still though, someone or some group must control the training. Probably the elders, the wisest, the most experienced, the best of the best. Like I said, even if all things were almost equal, age for the dunyain may be the main factor separating these categories, as the young must be taught.

Im assuming, then, that there is a hierarchy beyond simply being an initiate and then suddenly passing a test or two and becoming a fully empowered dunyain. I guess then, as children are taught about the logos, the Project, etc. so too must other information be revealed in steps. Making some kind of information gradient, with low concentration down at the bottom where the young are, and approaching 'all knowledge' only at the extreme heights of their order. I think this is reasonably likely.

Just like how children are not thrust into the thousand thousand halls until they have apprehended the Logos, the probability trance, and mastery (more or less) of their own body and mind, so too must other information be revealed slowly as to not overwhelm each subject.

In this way I don't think it is necessarily some kind of big conspiracy of hidden agendas, but rather just a natural unfolding of cause and affect. After all, "the more you know, the more you know you dont know", and,  "Keep it simple, stupid."

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« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2013, 07:54:57 pm »
Quote from: Madness
This assumes that Kellhus is a top-tier Dunyain, though not yet a Pragma himself apparently. That he doesn't know about sorcery or the Outside as he doubts the existence of these things with Leweth and with Cnaiur.

But then you are right, Wilshire, the Dunyain give up everything. They repudiate history, culture, and society... So the ancient Dunyain likewise probably thought nothing of ditching the Gods, the Outside, sorcery.

I just think this is an error. Turning their backs on the world, ultimately solved nothing - if things are as they appear - and one of their number reaps all the rewards of their training while Ishual and the rest of them lie destroyed...

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« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2013, 07:55:05 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I dont think Kell was at the top at all. Not even close. He was a prodigy yes, but certainly not some kind of higher up. What King gets sent out as an assassin? I think his 'training' was largely unfinished, but as they say, the Dunyain had no choice but to send him.

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« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2013, 07:55:13 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Well, the Pragma withholding information is not a new idea.

However, the issue you raise is that to stay isolated and complete the Project, if it depends on isolation, the Dunyain should be afraid that Kellhus would return too?

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« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2013, 07:55:20 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
They probably didn't expect him too. Best case scenario for them is that Moe and Kell kill each other. Worst case, Moe wins and they go to some plan B if they had one.

Even if he did kill Moe, Kell certainly wouldnt think that he could simply walk back to Ishual and be accepted. He likely knew it was a suicide mission. Perhaps this is what drove him to TTT. Just a task to occupy his mind, knowing that if he returned to Ishual he would either be killed or they would all die trying. He knew he could never achieve the goal of the Project, so he decided to tackle the most difficult issues confronting his childlike brethren.