The Unholy Consult

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What Came Before

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« on: June 01, 2013, 08:28:35 pm »
Quote from: Madness
[Note: I apologize now for lack of editing. I've not the time for a reread at the moment. I might do some minor touch-ups later. Hope its coherent and legible.]

Let me try this again. I sat down to do this yesterday but got caught up in reading philosophy discussion for my spring course and promptly had to work.

I'm going to attempt a synthesis of some kind today in the hopes of providing us with a platform for our Second Apocalypse discussions and some renewed speculative fervour. If I can get it done sharpish, it will also nicely coincide with all our increased traffic, especially today, but also over the next couple days. Pat has plugged us at Fantasy Hotlist and I expect that's one of the most resounding calls we can make to the SFF community. However, note that reading this involves major uncensored Spoilers, excepting in the cases of my comparisons to Dune - I will try to use few of these in this post, though I'm a big fan of finding the LOTR/Dune derivatives in TSA.

One last thing. Those of us who've survived these One Thread Famines and even to some extent TPB readers - though the comment system there actually allows for the tiniest bit of who's discussing what in its structure - will feel the need to respond with observations of my post directly within this thread. Rather I encourage you to take your one off thoughts of nerdom and explore them with all the philosophic rigour you possess by starting new threads surrounding specific arcs or concepts. If this community is too take off and create a living space for Bakker's readership, the most important thing is just posting what we can, when we can. To take an interest, a moment from our very different busy lives, and invest a little time in support of an incredible writer and thinker.

Fanfare aside...

Where we left them:

Momemn - The Imperial Custodian's assassination by the Empress' Narindar - the White Luck Warrior - has ended the Custodian's Rebellion. The Bandit Padirajah has crushed the Yatwerian Matriachy and is set to siege the city walls with the Last of the Cishaurim and the Yatwerian Mother-Supreme. The child Anasurimbor skulks and feeds within the Andiamine Labyrinth.

Aorsi - The Aspect Emperor has taken his Ordeal across the Wastes of the Ancient North to Aorsi and the Fortress Dagliash where the Consult once tacked the survivors of Ancient North's fall on the Wall of the Dead. With the Army of the South destroyed and the Mandate and the Vokalati severely reduced, the Great Ordeal has rejoined as one. Starvation encroaching, the Aspect-Emperor has commanded his Ordeal to eat the Sranc they fight.

Kuniuri - The Wizard Achamian and the Princess-Imperial Anasurimbor Mimara have traveled the breadth of the Wastes to Sauglish to find a map from Seswatha's Dreams which leads to Ishual in order to find the origins of the Aspect-Emperor. They discover its bastions crumbled, its walls struck to their foundations. Meanwhile, King Varalt Sorweel and the Anasurimbors Moenghus and Serwa remain in transit across the Demua Mountains to the ancient Mansion of Ishterebinth, weeks ahead of crossing Achamian and Mimara's paths.

Momemn:

Esmenet and the White-Luck Warrior - The Empress has only two remaining half-Dunyain to rely on for any type of support. With Kelmomas' arc being nothing but complete human degeneracy, we can expect him to continue plotting towards some Xerian view of incestual heaven with Esmenet. Thelliopa is little more than encyclopedic calculator. Esmenet is actually going to have to deal with her circumstances in the shadow of the stark realization that Kellhus doesn't care how she fairs and rely on her own wits to do so.

What remains enigmatic are the White-Luck Warrior and his visions. Mechanistic theory aside, Esmenet's Executioner seems to be standing at her side, to keep her alive and safe until the moment the Gods decree to drop the knife. Which, oddly enough, makes me feel as if she has at least one powerful ally with her to face the challenges to come.

Added to this some nuggets from the White-Luck Warrior's perspective. He actually seems to revere Esmenet, calling her "triumphant and condemned." (p. 766, WLW) His perspective also call Psatma the Holy Crone and Maithanet the Holy Shriah - the Aspect Emperor is, of course, denied the honorific.

Then there is one nagging sentence. The Fanim are written "the enemy," (p. 776, WLW) when the White-Luck Warrior muses on Fanayal attacking Momemn. It seems to actually confirm that Yatwer and the Solitary God do in fact oppose each other - excepting Psatma's suggestion that Fanayal isn't Anointed by who he thinks. So just who is the White-Luck Warrior's enemy?

Fanayal, Meppa, Melowebi and Psatma - These four fantastically different characters have been brought together by Fanayal's conquests and news of them. Each represents various significant unknowns about the Second Apocalypse.

The Bandit Padirajah survived the First Holy War and managed to secrete at least one Cishaurim from their extermination at Shimeh. In TJE he is little more than a rumour as Kelmomas causes his initial mayhem by killing the Yatwerian Matriarch. In the White-Luck Warrior he is revealed to us by Malowebi's perspective. In TUC he may be the hammer which breaks the New Empire by cracking Momemn.

My big question of Fanayal is just who favours him. Is it the Solitary God like Fanayal believes? Is it another of the Hundred like Gilgaol? The latter of which coincides with why the Yatwerian Avatars care not for what happens, thinking their Mother describes the unfolding process of events.

I find it interesting that Meppa doesn't actually say that the Solitary God has anointed Fanayal and Psatma simply assumes that he means this. Assumptively, Meppa would know.

The Last of the Cishaurim represents what I think is a narrative pattern skillfully embedded within the PON. More on this later but we don't actually know anything about the Fanim beliefs nor their moral validity within Earwa. I'd described recently on Westeros that there are only three articulated instances in the entirety of the PON of Cishaurim being hit with Chorae and all of them occur in TTT. I'll simply use Proyas' instance for one.

p. 378, TTT (Large Edition) - "a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag."

Excepting Moenghus the Elder's death, they are both described in the exact same fashion, completely different from the Salting.

Though this is something else I will dive into later, Moenghus' conversation with Kellhus in TTT and Meppa's conversation with Psatma reveal to us some incredible consistencies.

Firstly, neither Kellhus nor Moenghus deny Moenghus' actual ability to see into the Outside.

p. 367, TTT (LE) - "'There's more, Father. You're Cishaurim. You must know this.' ... 'The Dunyain,' Moenghus continued, 'think the World closed, that the mundane is all there is, and in this they are most certainly wrong. This world is open, and our souls stand astride its bounds ... I have searched ... and I have found nothing that contradicts the Principle.'

Reading the PON and Moenghus and Kellhus' conversation after the Layers of Revelation within the Aspect-Emperor is a completely different experience. This is one example.

So they don't Salt, they can see into the Outside, and possibly, move between it and the World. What are the Cishaurim and who is their God? Are they, in fact, the Righteous?

Then there is one my own personal Nerdanel (a poster whose moniker on Westeros became synonymous with wacky theories), that Meppa is in fact Moenghus the Elder or at the very least his Soul in another body. Bakker likes tease ambiguity out of the limitations of human memory. However, this is mostly inspired by a pattern derivative from Dune.

(click to show/hide)

One thing we can say for sure is that Meppa will be unleashed on Momemn, whether preaching Fanimry or destroying the walls with God's own voice.

The Second Negotiant, Mbimayun sorcerer Malowebi, travels with Fanayal in order to simply witness the unfolding events in the Three-Seas. "If he succeeds, High Holy Zuem will be a brother to Kian. We will strike as he strikes, bleed as he bleeds," (p. 587, WLW) the Satakhan tells Malowebi.

Likely, he will continue to be our major POV within Fanayal's camp, along with Psatma. In following perceived patterns, they might become more prominent POV's or, perhaps, Meppa himself will become a POV.

Malowebi represents our sum total knowledge of Zuem in the Three-Seas. While Zsoronga has given us glimpses into their society, with Malowebi we've actually gotten a glimpse of Zuem's plans. These are, basically, to do nothing in direct opposition to the Aspect-Emperor until at such a point they're sure to defeat him. Perhaps, we shall be waiting until The-Series-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named for a more direct experience of Zuemi belief and culture. One thing is for sure, they represent the most wholly unbleed might of Earwa should the Great Ordeal fail.

A couple notes about Malowebi I've always found interesting. First, the use of totems in Mbimayun sorcery. I was waiting for something like this ever since we'd experienced the Wathi Doll in TWP and had originally thought perhaps Witches would provide this insight before reading of the Swayal.

Second, his musings articulating the Dunyain as a race of Thought-Dancers. Since I'm always one to suggest exploring the coin of Dune derivatives, this is the first conception that really highlights the remoteness of Kellhus, the possibility of his existence beyond comprehension.

(click to show/hide)

Finally, Psatma Nannaferi, Yatwerian Mother-Supreme. She travels, willing prisoner, with Fanayal and his army soon to be reunited with her Brother, the White-Luck Warrior at Momemn. The Yatwerian Avatars seem quite convinced that, so far, everything unfolds according their Mother.

I'll include discussion of the Cults with Psatma because I very much feel that during the siege we will see all the Cults unleashed, seeking to undo the Imperial Loyalists from within and without. Psatma is likely to become their titular head as it was Yatwer's hand that seemed undo Maithanet's tenuous hold on the Cults as Shriah.

We've witnessed some measure of their agency already. Ajolki commands the true Narindar. Yatwer, the lowly masses. Gilgaol and Anagke share some measure of popularity. Akkeagni and Gierra have their priesthoods. And though, the Hundred are revered in Sakarpus, Husyelt and Gilgaol above all seem to command its belief.

However, their mortal adherents being everywhere and the Hundred openly at war, it's simply a matter of time before all their followers strive against the Anasurimbor Dynasty.

Psatma and the White-Luck are two very interesting perspectives simply because if - likely when - the No-God is resurrected, the Gods and their followers - possibly the basis of their existence - will be polarized by Truth of the No-God's existence.

Kelmomas - Possibly the most interesting character in the books at the moment simply because I'm a big fan of Neuropath and I mourn the loss of Inrilatas and Maithanet. Bar perspectives from Kayutas, Serwa, Kellhus, or even a new Dunyain, Kelmomas is all we got left. I find it interesting to note that though an ex of mine loves Mimara and hates Esmenet, Kelmomas is her favorite among Aspect-Emperor's new POVs.

Despite the feeling otherwise, Kelmomas actually has very few perspectives in TAE trilogy, the majority of the word count actually going to Esmenet. I'm a fan of thinking that Kelmomas is a cipher of Anasurimbor children and those around Kellhus in generel - Esmenet - but one thing Kelmomas' POV and character presence does is showcase his innate ability to hide the truth of self. Compared to the boy people experience, Kelmomas is actually a devil inside.

Which brings up another point. We have never experienced Kelmomas' POV before his Whelming. This means that, whether or not he actually changed his son in any way, Kellhus has irrevocably tampered with our experience of his son's perspective.

There is also the seeming affinity between Ajolki and Kelmomas. Without even the explicit references to the Four-Horned Brother within Kelmomas' perspective, the young Anasurimbor is actually behaving as a true Narindari and in ways Ajolki would actually be pleased as satisfying his Divine Will.

We left him touring the Andiamine Labyrinth, indiscriminately killing and eating Maithanet's Shrial Guards, becoming entirely feral were it not for the Voice and the Strength.

Is the Voice really a portion of Samarmas' Soul, including his half-Dunyain Strength? It would have some very interesting consequences to suggest that Dunyainic training while working to genetically endow their successors by the piling of generational behaviors, actually shapes a measure of Soul as well, that when born both their abilities and Soul reflect their genetics.

Is it Kellhus instructing his son or does Kellhus simply do that more explicitly? Bakker has often had characters withhold from us crucial information, even say a character like Achamian, who continually knows more than we know.

Is it Ajolki or does he even need a physical manifestation to exude his influence?

Finally, is the Voice simply the representation of the Dunyain portion, of the rift existing in all the Anasurimbor children, the divide between Esmenet's genes and Kellhus'?

I don't even think Esmenet will have needed Maithanet's warning. Kelmomas is going to return from the Labyrinth something more, like Inrilatas before him, but poisoned by his desire for his Mother.

A final thought about Momemn, which I may explore a little later as well. When and if the No-God walks, the very moment, all these enemies, excepting Psatma and the White-Luck Warrior, will simply become allies. This will probably coincide with the breaking of the Siege, when Esmenet staves off the Cults or, more likely, Fanayal breaks through the Walls and is about to take the city. It allows for either of them to not kill the other, knowing all humanity now needs each other.

Aorsi:

Kellhus and Proyas - The Exalt-General has been our most significant perspective within the Great Ordeal as to its purpose and strategy. No doubt we will witness the Siege of Dagliash mostly from Proyas' POV unless, of course, Zsoronga becomes a POV in the Unholy Consult.

There has been significant debate as to the true nature of the conversations between Kellhus and Proyas. From the texts, it seems we should assume that this is the first time Kellhus has ever portrayed this honesty to anyone but his family and after twenty years of war Proyas does not know how to take it.

I think we should likewise reserve judgement. However, there seem to a be few things we can surmise.

Firstly, Kellhus is going AWOL. Whether that means he has some devious plot tied to his own death or he plans to defect to the Consult I personally haven't decided. But it seemed like we'd agreed on Westeros that Kellhus is preparing Proyas to take the reins of leadership without His Divine insight and that Kellhus hopes to have a final lasting influence.

The second thing which seems clear is that Kellhus is preparing Proyas to be reunited with Achamian. Kellhus spends a great deal of his words with his Exalt-General absolving Achamian of the sins he's apparently commited against Kellhus and Zaudunyani Inrithism.

The Scarlet Spires, the Swayali Compact, the Mengaecca, and the Erratic Quya - From the PON to AE, Bakker has deceived us to thinking we've witnessed sorcery. I assure you, we have been misled.

In the PON, Bakker gave the Anagogis. That's it, that's all. However, I think he simply teased us with the skirmishes of the Gnosis and the Daimos.

Let's start with Iyokus the Necromancer. I'm going to guess he earns this name enslaving Ciphrang for Kellhus during the unification wars. He uses one Ciphrang in TWP against Achamian and then three against the Cishaurim at Shimeh, two of which are hit by Chorae before Achamian kills the last after fighting the Imperial Nansur.

We used to have this theory - I believe, Triskele, but I was wrong last time I quoted this - on Westeros that the demons on Kellhus hip are the two that weren't killed by Chorae in PON. I've long argued from this that this was Iyokus' Gift, that Kellhus personally offered Iyokus freedom from the Ciphrang he utilized so that the Necromancer would feel more comfortable utilizing his Daimotic abilties.

This is the unknown offered by the Scarlet Spires, the variable that mediates their power in comparison to the Gnosis of the Swayali and Mengaecca. A School of Daimotic sorcerers.

Next there are the three Gnostic powers that seems set to conflict at Dagliash. Now we have absolutely reason to suspect that the Mengaecca and Erratic Quya will even contest Dagliash themselves as I'm sure Sranc, Bashrag, Skin-Spies, and walls are as formidable as they need to be to contest the Ordeal. But I have a feeling that we're finally set to see some true Gnosis on Gnosis action.

This actually begs the question of the evolution of ideas. The Metagnosis represents something that simply didn't exist at the time of the First Apocalypse. Likewise, the Consult has likely made advancements and innovations to not just the Gnosis but the Tekne as well. We've seen Ursranc and Skin-Spies. What other creatures might they have created in their millennial pursuit.

Eating Sranc - The third and final issue concerning the Ordeal is the eating of Sranc. We've seen the changes wrought by Qirri, burnt Nonman, on Achamian, Mimara, and the Skin Eaters. We know that Sranc is a mockery of Nonman genetics. What effects will eating Sranc have on the Great Ordeal?

Kuniuri:

The Wizard Achamian - I've mentioned elsewhere that I feel connected to Achamian. His arc within PON really touched me and I really believe him to be the titular Hero of the Second Apocalypse. After re-reading the entirety of the Second Apocalypse, it's very clear from even TDTCB that Achamian is Fate's bitch. I always thought this epigram captures Achamian's mortal strife nicely.

p. 904, WLW - "The heroes among us, they are the true slaves. Thrust against the limits of mortality, they alone feel the bite of their shackles. So they rage. So they fight.

We only have as much freedom as we have slack in our chains. Only those who dare nothing are truly free.
- Suortagal, Epimeditations"

I'm not even sure what we can rightfully expect as a fitting arc for Achamian within the Aspect-Emperor. Likely, they will explore the ruins of Ishual. They may or may not risk the labyrinth of the Thousand Thousand Halls and simply find themselves within Ishterebinth itself.

Other than that I feel safe in speculating little else.

Some eerie foreshadowing on two fronts. In TJE, the inscription on the map case in Seswatha's Dreams says "Doom, should you find me broken." In WLW, the map case is indeed broken.

Then there is Nil'giccas armour, which Achamian is now wearing. Surely, this will be cause for issue whenever Achamian next happens on a Nonman.

Mimara, Prophet of God - This almost entire sums up my speculation on Mimara. From her very first POV in TJE - instances of her POV are actually more limited than you'd think - she describes the World as having a living magic to it, though she tries to disabuse herself of this notion.

Mimara's arc actually seems very clear. In TJE, she seemed to loathe herself, seeking the ultimate, final Damnation of sorcery. Then in WLW, after the meeting of the Chorae and Wight-of-the-Mountain, she finds herself abandoning those desires and comes to see herself as Blessed in the Judging Eye. In TUC, I expect to enjoy experiencing Bakker's meditations on Prophets and Mimara's Righteous Truth within Earwa as Mimara comes into her role.

Two things. When Mimara sees herself with the Judging Eye she is bald though she has yet to shave her head. She later feels possessed to seduce Nil'giccas, which is a key component of the breakdown of loyalties within the Skin Eaters and the reason that Achamian and Nil'giccas go into Sauglish alone.

Much of their story depends on just where these two end up. They are almost certainly predetermined by Kellhus and seem very much the "ace-in-the-hole" of humanity's struggle with the Consult. Do they join the Ordeal and unleashed the Judging Eye on Kellhus? Do they go to Ishterebinth, like I've always dreamed?

Secondly, was Nil'giccas ever witnessed by the Judging Eye? I can't seem to remember and so I'm doubting it happens.

Sorweel - The Horse-King of Sakarpus is on his way to see the wraiths of legend. The Nonmen of Ishterebinth, Erratic and Intact. He is almost certainly being managed by the Anasurimbor Serwa and is definitely being used by Yatwer. He's lied to the Aspect-Emperor, deceived him by Yatwer's blessing. He's hidden a Chorae within an harm's reach of Serwa, Grandmistress of the Swayal. And at the moment, he is certainly an enemy of the Anasurimbors, though not solely as a result of Serwa's manipulations.

Serwa - The Grandmistress of the Swayal Compact. By far one of my favorite characters and a perspective I'd basically kill for. She is half-Dunyain. She dreams the Dreams. She more than anyone has some true measure of the primary membership of the Consult.

More importantly, what are Kellhus' immediate expectations of his daughter while she is a hostage of the Nonmen? What, if anything, can we surmise from her arc so far?

Moenghus the Younger - The true son of Cnaiur urs Skiotha. While I appreciate Moenghus simply because he is his father's son and I miss Cnaiur, I have but one question.

Has Moenghus the Younger read the Compendium? Whatever the answer can change his motivations drastically. What might he do?

Bakker has hinted at intense infodumps in TUC. This arc is set to be the major one. We are about to witness what the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas have done to survive all these years.

Perhaps, the Consult themselves will be there to greet Sorweel and the Anasurimbors.

Odd Plot Out:

I want to end with a couple random thoughts.

The Nonmen: These ancient beings have witnessed the entirety of human history. The last we've known of them is that they've secluded themselves in their mountain fastness, attempting to find methods, sorcerous and otherwise, to retain their sanity. Now it seems they may have succumbed the Consult, regardless, perhaps by the revelations of the Inverse Fire.

Does Kellhus care what these wraiths do? Kellhus knows that they are lying suggesting they represent Nil'giccas. Nin'sariccas shares the Nin of the Betrayer's line. Compliant Consult figureheads pretending to rule Ishterebinth righteously?

Moenghus the Elder: I've long believed that Moenghus still has an influence to play upon the Second Apocalypse. I've highlighted some comparisons to Dune above but I won't waste any more time on this. I've also Nerdanel'd a thought in the past that Moenghus somehow plotted his Ascension to the Outside surrounding the circumstances of the Battle for Shimeh. I'll spend time on none of this.

I will simply argue that I believe that much went down in the conversation between Kellhus and Moenghus that we cannot yet understand and that Moenghus remains a huge unknown. Likely, Moenghus had combined elements of Dunyanic ritual and Cishaurim belief in the creation of his sect. Possibly, he's used Neuropuncture to create a better Cishaurim.

What exactly did he do in his time in the Three-Seas?

The Principles of Before and After and the White-Luck - "'That which comes before yet determines that which comes after' [Moenghus said] ... He was right ... The Principle of Before and After simply had to be true ... So what was this certainty, this immovable conviction, that he was wrong? (p. 367, TTT)

"That which comes after determines what comes before - in this World." (p. 185, WLW)

I personally can envision a World where both are true but this seems conceptually hard on people. However, I thought it was interesting, that on a reread, Kellhus' thoughts in the conversation between him and Moenghus the Elder suggest that Kellhus beliefs in the Principle of the White-Luck as well.

The Thousandfold Thought - The Probability Trance followed long enough reveals the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus saw it. Kellhus mined its labyrinthine possibilities. Inrilatas seems to have devised it in his cage. Maithanet knows of it. And Kelmomas seems able to grasp it.

p. 367, TTT - "The God sleeps ... It has ever been thus. Only by striving for the Absolute may we awaken Him. Meaning. Purpose. These words name not something given ... no, they name our task."

Moenghus seems to suggest that whomever delves the farthest will become Absolute, that the unmoved soul the Dunyain strive for, is the God itself.

Who has delved deepest?

A final note before I reread this and head to work.

Cnaiur - I really enjoy finding the patterns in literature and I feel this is something that Bakker is exploiting consciously. I find it interesting to note that for the majority of TTT Cnaiur spends his time in cahoots with Aurang. I also find it interesting that Cnaiur's first POV in TTT ends with Aurang tells him that "not even the dead escape the Plate." (p. 67, TTT.) Then at the end of TTT, he doesn't ever die, despite Bakker sidelining us with "Cnaiur's arc seems finished to me."

Cnaiur!!!!

Cheers everyone.

Let the speculation begin.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 11:32:03 am by Madness »

What Came Before

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 08:28:45 pm »
Quote from: cielago
wow man. slow clap. seriously, that is a prodigious amount of info/speculation/hints/teases. awesome.

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 08:28:55 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
From WLW we know the Black Heaven will be calling the synthetics soon.  The return of Mog is nigh?

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 08:29:00 pm »
Quote from: BargiltheDestroyer
When's this shit supposed to come out?  I got all excited, seeing some stores say some time in 2012, but now I keep seeing 2013.

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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 08:29:10 pm »
Quote from: Jayfish
Given that the inches have the capability of extending life, I find it hard to believe that Cnaiur has not joined the Consult. He just seems like too interesting of a character to kill off, but I suppose it's possible. Bakker doesn't really seem like the type to throw out red herrings.

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 08:29:19 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Cnaiur tried to kill himself at the end of Warrior prophet by cutting a swazond across his throat.  He also 'cuts' a swazond across his throat in his death scene.  Given that we know the first time he didn't actually manage to do it, it's reasonable to assume he didn't manage the second time either.

However, I'd be really disappointed if he doesn't stay dead.  secretly-not-dead-surprise is one of my least favorite tropes, it doesn't matter if it is Sylar, or Shredder, or Cnaiur, or Joker.  Just because someone is a cool character doesn't give an author license to lazarus them ad infinitum. 

Because I almost by default relate Earwa to Dune, I have to say that I think Duncan Idaho is an exception, because Idaho was an incredibly minor character with about ten lines of dialog before he's killed.  That he's later transformed into the second most important figure in the Dune mythology is sort of fantastic, I could maybe accept Cnaiur coming back if the Inchoroi are going to take the Duncan Idaho route with him and make him the center of a secret program...

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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 08:29:26 pm »
Quote from: Bastard of Godsgrace
I alsno wouldn't like it if Cnaiur is secretly alive. His character arc rweached satisfactory conclusion and should be left at it. Also, Cnaiur is about the same age as Achamian, so he would be in his sixties in TWLW. Sixty-some years old sorcerers can still scrape it, sixty-some years old barbarian warriors, not so much.

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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 08:29:35 pm »
Quote from: Brother_Jacob
Would like to think Cnaiur is dead myself, even though he has been my favourite actor in the novels.  Experience, however, has taught me that in fantasy if a character's fate is left so deliberately up in the air chances are he'll be making a return.  If not immediately, then definitely by the time Scott's kids get hold of the series.

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 08:29:43 pm »
Quote from: Borque
Impressive post.

Just one thing at this time. We actually don't know if Sorweel succeeded in lying to Kellhus. It seems like it to Sorweel, but K could easily be fully aware of what's going on and faking his reaction, so Yatwer won't suspect anything odd is in the works.

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 08:29:51 pm »
Quote from: Ajokli
Quote from: lockesnow
I could maybe accept Cnaiur coming back if the Inchoroi are going to take the Duncan Idaho route with him and make him the center of a secret program...

Ah, but they already have a secret program! The Dunyain. 

Great stuff as usual. Makes me want to reread TWP yet again

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 08:30:00 pm »
Quote from: Jayfish
Quote from: Bastard of Godsgrace
I alsno wouldn't like it if Cnaiur is secretly alive. His character arc rweached satisfactory conclusion and should be left at it. Also, Cnaiur is about the same age as Achamian, so he would be in his sixties in TWLW. Sixty-some years old sorcerers can still scrape it, sixty-some years old barbarian warriors, not so much.

Age isn't really an issue, since the Tekne can eliminate the ravages of age. I actually think Cnaiur serves a pretty specific role that has yet to be replaced effectively in the Aspect Emperor. Specifically, someone that understands Kellhus' nature and, as a result of that understanding, has been driven to - presumably - join the Consult and turn against his own humanity. Cnaiur's reunion with his son would be interesting.

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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 08:30:09 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
I'm guessing Cnaiur committed suicide via one last swazond to the throat at the end of TTT. I suppose his life or death could be out of his hands though. In any case, the Consult should have a healthy respect for the Dunyain.

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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2013, 08:30:16 pm »
Quote from: Blackstone
Quote from: Madness

p. 378, TTT (Large Edition) - "a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag."

Excepting Moenghus the Elder's death, they are both described in the exact same fashion, completely different from the Salting.


p. 390, TTT - In reference to Kellhus throwing a chorae crossbow bolt at a Chisaurum: "There was a burst of incandescence rimmed by a nacre of black. The figure dropped." Nacre is mother of pearl. Directly following this passage is the story of the little boy chipping away at the salt figure. I think the proximity of the two passages can logically (though definitely) be linked.

If Moe turns to salt when he is touched by a chorae then it seems that any Chisaurum would. Salting is a result of using magic, not of a sorcerers racial composition, and Moe uses the same magic as the rest of the Chisaurum.

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 08:30:24 pm »
Quote from: Madness
My hesitation to include the other examples was a matter of brevity. Moenghus the Elder's death doesn't actually contradict the "Cishaurim don't Salt" theory, it just doesn't support it.

I truly believe that Cishaurim don't salt and that they just instantly get absolved into the Solitary God's beneficence, leaving their worldly bodies behind. You know, the Christian Rapture. Or something like that.

"Moenghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flared from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiur thought, it seemed the God watch him through a man's skull ... But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them. 'Not again!" Cnaiur howled at the sagging form." p.387, TTT LE

I think that this actually supports the theory but, obviously, it's purposely ambiguous. Plus, Cnaiur, poor guy, is a stark raving lunatic at this point. Not a very coherent perspective.

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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 08:30:32 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Borque
Impressive post.

Just one thing at this time. We actually don't know if Sorweel succeeded in lying to Kellhus. It seems like it to Sorweel, but K could easily be fully aware of what's going on and faking his reaction, so Yatwer won't suspect anything odd is in the works.

I like that idea a lot.

Now that I think on it, this seems more reasonable than at first glance. Kellhus was pretty much a god in PoN, but he seems to be much  more humanized in AE. Sure you've got the whole god complex thing that everyone believes, but not until near the end of TTT did kellhus himself ever really express doubt. Now, he all of a sudden doesn't know if he can complete his mission?

On my second read through the whole series: I dont buy it. He is quite the actor, and it does seem reasonable that he is playing everyone, even the gods at this point.