The Inchoroi

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« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:00 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1, again, lockesnow. Bravo. Echos of Chapterhouse.

Quote from: Auriga
The Seswatha flashback in the third book implies that all Inchoroi are male and that the Ark is the "female" of their species - Seswatha basically says that Golgotterath is a dead womb.

This was always my interpretation as well, that the Inchoroi were some kind of symbiotic species that had evolved in the Void (read Bakker's space, Universe). A creature birthed little monsters in its space womb.

Edit:

The Unholy Consult, Ch. 1 Excerpt:

(click to show/hide)

Thought this had some fuel for speculation.

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« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:09 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
Thought this had some fuel for speculation.

Indeed. The story about the Inchoroi making the Ark into their surrogate world, as well as them being a damned species who have traveled from planet to planet, doesn't really square with the story about the Ark being the "mother" of the Inchoroi.

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« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:17 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Well, we don't know what the Iyisku are. 
Are they some subtype of Inchoroi?   
Or the proper word for Wutteat's genus (father of the Wracu might entail a different species - like Cunoroi and Sranc) ... a 'bottomless' pit might fit with being a mostly airborne species.

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« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:24 pm »
Quote from: Madness
To be quite honest, I did flag this to inspire wanton and rampant speculation - as always - but likely, it is what the Inchoroi call themselves, what Shauriatas knows them as - whereas Inchoroi is simply the Nonmen name for the Inchoroi.

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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:32 pm »
Quote from: bbaztek
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
Thought this had some fuel for speculation.

Indeed. The story about the Inchoroi making the Ark into their surrogate world, as well as them being a damned species who have traveled from planet to planet, doesn't really square with the story about the Ark being the "mother" of the Inchoroi.

Both explanations can work. The 'real' inchoroi are lazing around on their homeworld/mothership while they seed the universe with Arks. The Arks are like gigantic von neumann machines that carry inchoroi souls/embryos and tekne blueprints for any possible permutation of their genotype. The Ark lands, the souls/embryos develop into their desired bodies, and then they go kill shit. Rinse, repeat.

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« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:39 pm »
Quote from: Galbrod
You're thinking something 'Avatar'-ish?

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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:46 pm »
Quote from: bbaztek
I guess? All I'm saying the Arks are cargo ships that carry dormant inchoroi and tekne technology. So in a sense golgotterath is the 'mother' of the inchoroi landing parties, but not the actual originator of the race.

gotta say the idea of the Ark being a void-born organism that carries inchies like humans carry gut flora is pretty fucking rad though

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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:56 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Istriyu just the aboroginal word for Inchoroi... ou mean what they called themselves before they had mouths? ;) 
If it were that straight forward I think we would have heard the term before, but maybe.

So why a bottomless pit as a surrogate world? 

Re. the ark as mother, from a convo between Seswatha and Nau Cayuti in TTT
Quote
"There are some" ... "who argue that the entire Ark is a thing of bone, that vein and skin once pulsed across these walls."
"You mean the Ark once lived?"
..."The Inchoroi called themselves Children of the Ark.  The most ancient Nonmen lays refer to them as the Orphans."
"So this thing ... this place ... mothered them?"
..."Or fathered ... The fact is, we haven't the words for such things."...
"But I understand full well, you're saying that Golgotterath is a dead womb."

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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2013, 04:26:04 pm »
Quote from: Madness
The passage Curethan has quoted is what I believe inspires the speculation Auriga and I share about, as bbaztek so succinctly put it, the Ark and Inchoroi being a vengeful "void-born organism that carries inchies like humans carry gut flora."

However, bbaztek also offers a concise synthesis...

The quote from the excerpt, the word surrogate specifically, suggests that the Iyisku had to leave a preceding world, neh? Or is that just mine own connotation :)?

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« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2013, 04:26:28 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Surrogate world, or surrogate Ground?

Was the Ark itself their first attempt to escape damnation, before they discovered the phenomenon was non-local?

When the consequences of our sins against our own birth-world become too bitter to survive, will we attempt the same?

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« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2013, 04:26:35 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Just flying off on random tangents now, but;
Perhaps the Iyisku were the progenitors of the Inchoroi, rather than the Ark itself?
And the inchies are themselves a weapon race

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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2013, 04:26:43 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
"Iyisku" is pretty clearly the endonym of the Inchoroi.

Quote from: Duskweaver
Was the Ark itself their first attempt to escape damnation, before they discovered the phenomenon was non-local?

This was my theory as well, that the Ark was their attempt to create a new self-contained world with its own moral rules (thus, preventing damnation in the afterlife) before I re-read the third book and came across the "Golgotterath is a dead womb" line.

Quote
When the consequences of our sins against our own birth-world become too bitter to survive, will we attempt the same?

Possible, if space technology allows it. But we'll probably destroy the planet long before technological progress gets that far. Moreover, the destruction of the biosphere is very slow and insidious. There will be no giant flashing sign that says PUSH HERE TO DESTROY EARTH, nor will the response be sudden. It will be very gradual, but at a certain point, like any other chemical reaction, it will have gone too far to be reversed.

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« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2013, 04:26:53 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol at insight. Auriga, are you suggesting that Iyisku means "Children-of-the-Ark," as loosely as the Inchoroi could translate to Ihrimsu once they birthed mouths?

+1 to Curethan who also suggested this on the last page.

Based on both those comments, I wonder at how the Inchoroi constructed and communicated meaning before grafting a vocal apparatus to their form, suitable to vibrate air at Earwan gravity ...

+1 to Duskweaver and Auriga: They discover damnation on their original Ground (which at this point in my speculative life, I'm using synonymously with Planet) and built a surrogate world:

Quote from: Auriga
This was my theory as well, that the Ark was their attempt to create a new self-contained world with its own moral rules (thus, preventing damnation in the afterlife) before I re-read the third book and came across the "Golgotterath is a dead womb" line.

The thing about Seswatha's theory is that it's so densely layered by degrees of separation from the source. Unless there was some specific commentary by the Inchoroi to one of the native Earwans, then everything is subject to the biases of speculating fantastically about science fiction technology (pardon the associative short-cut I took there) through the lens of a handful of cultures and hundreds of thousands of possible deviating perspectives.

If it is a truly a dead womb, then something along the lines of AB's Space Golem/Automata, bbaztek's Void Organism, or a generation vessel, is most likely. But we just don't know :shock: ...

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« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2013, 04:27:00 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
Ground (which at this point in my speculative life, I'm using synonymously with Planet)
I threw out that distinction between "world" and "Ground" for a reason. To me, "world" or "planet" are purely physical terms, whereas "Ground" has metaphysical connotations in the Bakkerverse. In The False Sun, Shaeönanra doesn't seem to appreciate this distinction at first, speaking of "other Grounds ... like our own", and Aurang is quick to point out that "This Ground" is unique because Salvation is possible there as nowhere else in the Universe. IMO, that's what the Inchoroi were seeking to create when they built/birthed/grew the Ark: a Ground where Salvation would be possible. In the event, it turned out to be merely a means to eventually discover that Promised Ground, rather than the Promised Ground itself, but the Inchoroi could not have known that until they left their original homeworld.

So I don't think the terms are entirely interchangeable.

The Ark can be both a Ground and a Womb, though. I think those terms might be a bit closer to synonymous in this context. Yatwer would agree, I think. It can't be a coincidence that it is she who most openly opposes Kellhus' attempt to reshape Eärwa's metaphysical Ground, nor that it is her domain of Birth that is most obviously overturned when the No-God walks.

Mother's Womb makes a nice metaphor for the Darkness that Comes Before.

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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2013, 04:27:08 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I would argue that Earwa is the only Ground by your connotation - despite our theorized attempt at making the Ark a Ground where Damnation didn't apply.

Just thoughts but to distinguish I'll use world for Planets.

Inchoroi have a homeworld. Some plucky fuck invents/discovers a technology/portal/tear/hole that results in the revelations of the Inverse Fire. Inchoroi are Damned and mistake their world for a Ground.

- Minor nitpick as I'm constructing this but anyone have any theories on whether the Inverse Fire shows my Damnation vs. Damnation itself? Imagine a scenario where the Judging Eye could look on the Inchoroi-who-discover-IF before they attempt anything to free themselves and they weren't Damned under its gaze, despite the "truth" of the Inverse Fire. This is something that bothers me. Does Shaeonanra, as I feel, have only the word of the Inchoroi that what he experiences in the Inverse Fire is what he will in fact experience when he dies because of his actions in life and the narrative of the Tusk or does Shaeonanra (or whoever) experience the truth of their personal Damnation when they experience the IF? The former gives even more credence to the Second Imperative theory, that the Inchoroi also added Sorcerers as Unclean to the Tusk.

Back to: the Inchoroi decide that nothing they do on their world is helping so they try and make the Ark - perhaps, it is a biological machine, which informatically stores their consciousnesses, and birthed physical clones back onto the Ark. Perhaps, they felt this process would sever the connection and allow them to go onto a new world free of their Damnation. Yet like a tv with one channel... the IF still showed damnation.

This is where I have to distinguish between our perspective and theirs. Aurang says "This Ground" is not like other Grounds. Within the context of my summary, Aurang most certainly has been previously referring to all planets as Grounds and doesn't actually understand the distinction as you make it.

They keep hunting world after world, following some prophecy about 144,000 but no world is a Ground as you've defined it until Earwa.

I think, Duskweaver, you and I are able to make the distinction you are because we can view the narrative without. Perhaps, Aurang and the Consult have come in time to recognize Earwa as the only Ground (read Topoi, basically, if I understand your metaphysical connection correctly) and all other Grounds as physical grounds or worlds.

EDIT:

"Inrau had found his grotto in the shrine of Onkis, the Singer-in-the-Dark, the Aspect who stood at the heart of all men, moving them to forever grasp far more than they could hold ... Her image never failed to stir something within him, and this is why he always returned to her: she was this stirring, the dark place where the flurries of his thought arose. She came before him" (TDTCB, p132).

It seems Onkis usurps Yatwer as this aspect, good sir.