The Maganecca

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« on: June 04, 2013, 03:53:54 pm »
Quote from: Octavian
While skimming through the appendix and other chapters I realized that we do not get mentions of them outside the fact that they found the Ark and the Brothers Inchoroi. I mean we know that they are a part of the Consult, but whereas Mek is mention and so to Aurang and Aurax we never get a mention of not one member of the School, not even during any of the battles of the Apocalypse. Which is weird when you think about it because they had Seswatha to contend with as well as the rest of the Schools. Yet even in Seswatha's dreams we don't see them. Even in the WLW when Sorweel and his company stumble across the 10 Yoke Legion, they are being controlled by Quya.

We know that Shae has always been known for his subtly and Kellhus guessed that it takes a group of Sorcerers to power Aurang's Synthese. So what I am thinking is that we don't them because they are too valuable to lose maybe? Maybe the No God cannot be summoned/powered without them.

Or maybe I am just reading to far into it. Ijist find it curious that out of all the battles we are briefed about in the series, Shae and Co. are not mentioned in being in one.

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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 03:54:06 pm »
Quote from: Francis Buck
I would imagine it's somewhat like you said, in that they're not used in the field for battles because of their value as Gnostic sorcerors. Considering the only Inchoroi left are Aurang and Aurax, there must be someone else doing all the "work" in the Ark (whatever the hell that work is). And since they already have legions of Sranc, Bashrag, Wracu, etc. (or at least they did), it makes sense to save the Mangaecca to be the "brains behind the operation" so to speak (again, who else is there other than the two Inchoroi?). Do we even know just how many of them joined up in the first place? They must, by now, almost certainly have been made immortal or at least have had their lifespans radically increased, although who knows what foul reproductive methods are possible with the Tekne.

Either way, it's like you said: we know very, very little about them, so it's hard to say exactly why their presence has been so minimal thus far (at least that we're aware of).

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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 03:54:13 pm »
Quote from: Madness
In WLW, Serwa recounts that she has battled Shaeonanra as Seswatha in the Dreams. I want her perspective so badly... one of the few women and the only any part Dunyain, that we know of, to dream the Dreams.

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 03:54:20 pm »
Quote from: Octavian
Quote from: Madness
In WLW, Serwa recounts that she has battled Shaeonanra as Seswatha in the Dreams. I want her perspective so badly... one of the few women and the only any part Dunyain, that we know of, to dream the Dreams.

Do you remember the passage? I would like to read it. Serwa is really interesting, I often wonder which part of her is stronger. The Seswatha or the Dunyain. While reading the False Sun I got the feeling that Shae might not have been the most powerful, but he was certainly amongst the smartest. I am willing to bet that he played a huge part in the summoning of the No God. I've always thought that they used sorcerous means to extend their lives, but it could also be part Tekne.

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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 03:54:26 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Octavian
While reading the False Sun I got the feeling that Shae might not have been the most powerful, but he was certainly amongst the smartest.
But intelligence and analytical ability brings power when your metaphysics are the Gnosis.

Yeah I'm assuming the Maengaecca are holding back. So far the Consult has barely committed anything against the Great Ordeal. Just the Ten Yoke Legion and a unit of Bashrags. Why bother when you can let attrition and the Horde take out a fourth of their strength before they even reach your first strongholds?

I'm assuming unless they go entirely scorched earth that we'll see them very soon in Unholy Consult though. I got the impression that Dagliash was actually garrisoned, so it will be the first real engagement between the Ordeal and a determined Consult force.

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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 03:54:33 pm »
Quote from: Madness
"I have battled Shauriatas in my Dreams. I have been tortured by Mekeritrig. Chased across Earwa by Aurax and Aurang. The Consult is as real as it is wicked and deadly, Sorweel. Short of my father, the world knows no powers more ferocious. Even absent the No-God and the Second Apocalypse, the warrant the blood-thirsty fanaticism of Men" (WLW, p709).

Only months late, Octavian.

I assume that the life-extension is a reflection of sorcery and Tekne, though the Ch.1 Excerpt from TUC provides more insight into that, I believe.

I think Dagliash will be garrisoned as well, Sharmat. However, will it simply be the instruments of the Tekne, the Sranc, Ursranc, Bashrag, Wracu, Skin-Spies, and any new inventions or the immortal tools of the Consult, the Nonmen and the Maengecca themselves?

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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 03:54:41 pm »
Quote from: Octavian
Alas, that sample chapter for TUC was such a tease. For it opens up more questions about the school than it answers, but that is a good thing. Thus far the only Gnostic on Gnostic battle we have scene has been Akka vs Cleric, which wasn't really a proper battle. It makes me very curious to see how Quya and Maganecca stack up against the assembled schools of the new empire, Kellhus and the Meta-Gnostic.

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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 03:54:48 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Good to know you're hovering around, Octavian.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and its funny as this is one of the chief reasons to anticipate TUC: I want the GNOSIS!

Dagliash may or may not mark our first true witness of Gnosis vs. Gnosis conflagration - like you, I count Achamian vs. Nilgiccas as quite the tease. Seswatha (Average Mandati) can probably hold out against Quya 1v1. Achamian goes toe to toe with Nil'giccas, who must be of the more powerful Quya, though obviously skewed, it does suggest that two or three Gnostic sorcerers wouldn't have too much trouble with a Quya. Achamian, also, goes 1v1 against the Daimotic Ciphrang and about 1v5 with the Anagogis (factoring for sorcerers-of-rank vs. adepts at the Sareotic Library).

However, there are quickly issues. It's been mentioned that the Ordeal serves as a basic vehicle for the Schoolman and, of course, the number of Chorae.

At the very least, the Consult field only Gnostic Schoolmen and Quya. At worst, they have Aporetic Schoolmen and Quya, as well as, whatever other sorcery the Consult have found in the labyrinth.

This puts the Ordeal at a significant disadvantage. In the new hierarchy, Kellhus is most powerful. Then, of the remaining Mandate and Swayal, there is percentage of Metagnostic sorcerers, which significant or not, is restricted to only Gnostic users.

Unless the Scarlet Spires utilize the Daimos, they and all the remaining Schools are little more than sorcerous fodder before the sorceries of the Consult.

Are Kellhus and the Metagnostics enough to tip the scales, if the Consult field sorcerers at Dagliash?

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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 03:54:56 pm »
Quote from: Octavian
I'm interested in the Daimos bring unleashed, not because the potential threat that the ciphang may or may not pose, but because of the reaction they may inspire. Remember, Shae was freaked out at the mere thought of damnation and the outside, now they have the very beings that inhabit the place banging at their front door.

I remember reading somewhere in the first book how Akka was something along the lines of a War Cant Master and would actually haves been higher in position of the Mandate if it wasn't for politics. Many people didn't like the confrontation between him and Cleric but I personally loved it. Akka only sung cants for shields and wards, complex ones at that and bid his time for the perfect chance to strike, and he got it. This isn't a knock towards Cleric but a nod towards Akka.

Kellhus bested Mek in swordsmanship and only ran when sorcery came into play. He also took out like 3-5 Cish by himself at Shimeh. Its been 20 years since then, what he has come up with since then can only be guessed at, but I mean when the man walks the sky he causes thousands of Sranc to go flying.

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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 03:55:03 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Kellhus is likely super-powerful but if he might have accomplished his plans himself, he probably would have.

Also, people make a great deal out of Kellhus' prowess at Shimeh, however, mostly he takes out the Cishaurim with non-sorcerous means (Chorae, Enshoiya), and simply confounds them with his Cant of Transposing.

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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 03:55:12 pm »
Quote from: Octavian
Yes, I agree totally and that's what makes that battle to me so interesting. The only other time I remember seeing a mix of sorcery and physical fighting was from the scene when the skin eaters did battle in Cil Aujas from Cleric.

What i was getting at is that the Ordeal does its own forces that can be reckoned with from appearances. Now how they are actually used is something else.

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 03:55:21 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I personally think that should the Consult take the field with sorcerers at Dagliash that the Ordeal would lose... Ah! Cannot wait, eh, Octavian? It's gonna be epic!!!

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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2013, 03:55:29 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
I personally think that should the Consult take the field with sorcerers at Dagliash that the Ordeal would lose... Ah! Cannot wait, eh, Octavian? It's gonna be epic!!!


Would you say that it will be...memorable?

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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 03:55:37 pm »
Quote from: jogrady
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
I personally think that should the Consult take the field with sorcerers at Dagliash that the Ordeal would lose... Ah! Cannot wait, eh, Octavian? It's gonna be epic!!!


Would you say that it will be...memorable?


Not sure exactly what youre trying to say here Triskele, but maybe it lines up with a theory I have. That theory is that one great event can renew the nonmen erratic. At first, I though a nonman/woman birth would be the key event, but an epic battle could do the trick. That battle could be a reset, a point that has so many people, so many wonderful and terrible actions that can reset an sustain the nonman psyche.

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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 03:55:46 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Seems unlikely.  After all, the nonmen all lived through the first apocalypse. They all have memories of war and death and unnamed atrocities that they have both witnessed and committed. Seeing the extinction, or near extinction, of another population of humans just wouldn't be enough to have that kind of impact.
The birth of a nonman child would be far more likely to trigger some kind of response. I think, if something like a reset could happen, it would be through an act of unfathomable kindness. It has to be something anathema to the Nonmen, something utterly new. Repetition of the old pains is not going to cause anything notable.