Infidelity and the High Kings of Kūniüri

  • 36 Replies
  • 9559 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« on: June 04, 2013, 06:43:37 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
Something has been bugging me for a while.

There are scenes in the text that imply that Seswatha was having an affair with Anasurimbor's queen at some point. The implication is that some part of the Anasurimbor lineage might actually be his line (and it is heavily implied Nau-Cayuti is actually his son). However, Nau-Cayuti presumably dies before having children, and Kellhus can trace his lineage back to Celmomas II through Ganrelka II.

However, if Seswatha was getting it on with the king's consorts at various points, who says that every Anasurimbor character we've met thus far isn't actually his descendant? It boils down to the question: who was Ganrelka II's father?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 06:43:43 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Funny enough, when I started reading the series, I plied my brain for ages wondering who the hell Ganrelka is. The timelines, for whatever reason, didn't mesh well in my head. I always had the feeling he's either one of the Princes or maybe a brother? But that doesn't keep either, because his uncle, who lead an assault on Golgotterath's gates, hung himself in the prologue of TDTCB. So who the hell is the uncle? Celmomas's brother? Maybe there's something I've missed in the odd (to my eyes) lineage.

As for Seswatha and Anasurimbor's wife, I'd say the scenes with him and her were a bit more than implied. What with all the bowing and passion.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 06:43:50 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
Quote from: Sideris
As for Seswatha and Anasurimbor's wife, I'd say the scenes with him and her were a bit more than implied. What with all the bowing and passion.

Except it was a dream. I think the appendix says that sometimes the dreams are contradictory.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 06:43:57 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
I think Ganrelka is Celmomas' nephew.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 06:44:03 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Contradictory perhaps, but hasn't it been implied more and more that Akka is walking Seswatha's footsteps to a T? More so than any before.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 06:44:09 pm »
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Welcome to the glories on infidelity, from which no part of the human race is exempt.  Statistically, there's an 80 to 90 percent chance that someone's father is the guy who is supposed to be the father.  Obviously, maternity is easier to firmly establish.  The Dunyain might have better than usual ways of confirming paternity, due to their breeding program, but that's irrelevant.

It's a relatively small population that's been isolated and breeding only with itself.  Given the amount of time involved, all of them carry Anasurimbor blood.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 06:44:16 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I think there are two issues here, CC. Firstly, do all Anasurimbor carry Nonmen blood? Secondly, were any of the Anasurimbor of the Few before Seswatha's cuckoldry?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 06:44:22 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
Quote from: Madness
I think there are two issues here, CC. Firstly, do all Anasurimbor carry Nonmen blood? Secondly, were any of the Anasurimbor of the Few before Seswatha's cuckoldry?

That second question is particularly important, since it seems like a partially hereditary ability. If there were no Anasurimbor Few before Seswatha, then we can assume that anyone bearing the name after Genrelka II is actually a descendant of Seswatha.

Quote from: lockesnow
I think Ganrelka is Celmomas' nephew.

Anyone got a citation for that? If it's true, then my crackpot theory about Kellhus being a direct descendant of Seswatha is probably false.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 06:44:29 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Well, the Quya as a social caste is specifically supposed to denote heredity status as the Few - heredity is a hard word to shoe horn into a sentence :S. It's from a Bakker quote on the old Three Seas, I'll try and find it.

Arguably, there might exist a Quya who is hereditary of a pedigree going back to the first Nonmen. Perhaps, this generational stacking has an effect - perhaps on lowered learning curve, innate ability?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 06:44:36 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Also, another thought. The Anasurimbor who survives the Dunyain is Ganrelka's bastard. No info on the Nameless Anasurimbor's mother, eh?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 06:44:44 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
I half wondered if it was the concubine's child. He wouldn't necessarily be a direct heir then, would he? But we know so little of the minutiae of Kuniuric succession. :P

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 06:44:50 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: lockesnow
I think Ganrelka is Celmomas' nephew.

Anyone got a citation for that? If it's true, then my crackpot theory about Kellhus being a direct descendant of Seswatha is probably false.


Quote
Months earlier, Anasurimbor Ganrelka II, High King of Kuniüri, had fled to Ishual with the remnants of his household.

Quote
1408 - Anasūrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I defeats Scintya, seizes the Ur-Throne in Trysė and declares himself the first High King of Kūniüri, at age 30.[72]
1556 - Anasūrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I dies at age 178, his long life reputedly the result of the Nonman blood in his veins. In the 148 years of his reign, he had extended Kūniüri to the Yimelati Mountains in the north, to the westernmost coasts of the Cerish Sea in the east, to Sakarpus in the south, and to the Demua Mountains in the west. At his death, he divided this empire between his sons, creating Aörsi and Sheneor in addition to Kūniüri proper

2056 - Anasūrimbor Mygella, Hero-King of Aörsi, whose deeds are recounted in The Sagas, is born.[87]
2089 - Anasūrimbor Celmomas II, last High King of Kūniüri, is born.[88] Seswatha, founder of the School of Mandate, is born to a caste-menial Trysean bronzesmith.[89]
2092 - Anasūrimbor Nimeric, High King of ancient Aörsi before its destruction in the Apocalypse, is born.[90]
2104 - At age 15, Seswatha becomes the youngest sorcerer of rank in the history of the Sohonc.[92] Anasūrimbor Ganrelka II, successor of Celmomas II and last reigning High King of Kūniüri, is born.[93]
2109 - Anaxophus V, Kyranean High King, is born.[94]
2111 - Anasūrimbor Mygella, famed Hero-King of Aörsi, dies at age 46.[95]
2119 - Anasūrimbor Nau-Cayūti, youngest son of Anasūrimbor Celmomas II and his most prized wife Sharal, is born. Legends have long circulated that Nau-Cayūti was in fact Seswatha’s son.[98]
2123 - Nonmen Siqu inform the Grandmaster of the Sohonc that the Mangaecca, or Consult as they had come to be called, had uncovered lost Inchoroi secrets that would lead to the world’s destruction. Seswatha in turn convinced Anasūrimbor Celmomas to declare war on Golgotterath, known as the Great Ordeal.[99]

I was originally going to claim that Ganrelka descended from either Mygella or from Nimeric. I was going to say Nimeric because of the way he fell out with the ordeal (it is likely Nimeric's chorae/pouch that Sorweel is carrying), it would have made sense for him to send his heir to Ishual.  Ganrelka is high king of Kuniuri not of the other two regions, I was going to argue that he was named high king after all the other anasurimbor had died, but I think it looks like he is Celmomas' son.  So I retract the previous claim he's a nephew.

Look at the timeline, Ganrelka is born the same year that Seswatha ascends to a notable position.  Presumably, Celmomas began Ishual's construction at this point.  He may have been fearful for his heir, he may have suddenly given credence to worries about the consult now that he was a father and subject to new fatherly emotions, he may have decided that raising his heir away from court would protect him from his royal relatives and possibly siblings?[/quote]

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2013, 06:45:09 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Not my quote, lockesnow - Jorge's.

But wicked insight on Ganrelka as Celmomas' heir. You just blew my mind.

Lol, makes me think of that battle you and I were called to engage in of all things Earwa.

Maybe Ganrelka too is Seswatha's son.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 06:45:16 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
If Ganrelka is also Seswatha's son he would have been conceived when Ses was 14 and before Seswatha ascended as a sorcerer of rank.  I think the fact that Seswatha ascends and Celmomas has an heir in the same year are meant to indicate that Ganrelka is legitimately Celmomas' son.

[edit]oh, I wasn't paying attention to the years of birth for Celmomas.  He and Seswatha were born the same year.  While it isn't unreasonable that a prince would be married off at 13 and produce an heir within a few years, I think it may be more likely that Ganrelka is Celmomas' little brother.    That would make Ganrelka's bastard Celmomas' nephew, so maybe I was right in the first place.

Crackpot, we know that Celmo had a twin that died in childbirth, but what if the weak child was 'exposed' in order to kill it.  Only they didn't kill it, they pulled a moses and gave the child to a peasant craftsman to raise and thus we have Seswatha, Celmomas' brother/twin all along.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 06:45:22 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Crackpot: Cue Game of Thrones esque plot point: "No, my lord, they children do not have black hair...trick of genetics, haha! Ha...ha...I'm your best bud, right?"