Earwa as different from other worlds

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« on: June 04, 2013, 07:22:17 pm »
Quote from: Church
Given what Scott's said about one of the major themes of TSA, namely it being a metaphysical whodunnit, I wonder what people would think about this question: is it implied that Earwa is the only world where sorcery can happen? I think the places this idea from was ------ SPOILER ALERT-------- TTT. In the appendix to TTT it seems to state pretty clearly that the Inchoroi used 'Weapons of Light', not sorcery, in their first war against the Nonmen. Given how powerful sorcery is it would seem implausible for a race as obsessed with destruction as the Inchoroi not to have some ability in this, unless it hadn't been a possibility on whatever other worlds they had travelled from, and they hadn't had sufficient time to genetically graft it into themselves since their arrival on Earwa. This seems to fit fairly well into the apparently unique nature of Earwa, and the apparently close relationship of sorcery and damnation. Would be interested to know what others think, and I hope I haven't just stated the obvious here!

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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 07:22:24 pm »
Quote from: Twooars
I think there has been some discussion about this at Westeros... the consensus being (I could be wrong), sorcery is probably unique to Earwa, because a) the Inchoroi did not have it when they arrived b) they may not have encountered it on the other worlds (or they would have had it when they came here).
But damnation, as I understand, is universal and not unique to Earwa (as the Inchoroi had been on their mission to avoid damnation before they arrived here). Sorcery may be just one more path that leads to damnation, and there is nothing special about the relationship between the two? (just thinking aloud!)
But I wonder, in what other way is Earwa unique? Is it the only world where the Gods have direct access to the material world (as opposed to them dwelling on the Outside)? Is it the only world where the inhabitants (or at least a Few) have a spark of the Outside/God (as Kellhus suggests to Akka, but I don't know if we can take anything Kellhus says at face value) in them and so somehow they are able to manipulate the material world using sorcery?

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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 07:22:29 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
As you say, the inchies grafted the ability to work sorcery onto themselves (a mostly fatal process - the inchies were moribund before coming to Earwa, so it was obviously very important to gain the ability to work sorcery). 
It was sorcery that allowed the nonmen to effectively oppose them.
They apparently destroyed many worlds before coming to Earwa (presumably without encountering sorcery in any sufficiently effective form).
It is clear that they were searching for Earwa specifically, and that their quest is all about damnation. 

Judgement and thus damnation, seems linked to all souls - think of it as a universal quantifier.
Sorcery is linked to some souls, an existential quantifier.  It makes sense from a self-organizing system's perspective that such a sub group would be locally connected.
The common factor in these two subsets is a link to the 'outside' and the reality altering nature of sorcery (as either a thaumaturlogical mechanism or a conduit to an external energy source) entails that the place where the existential subset is centred would be the place to strike if you wanted to effectively disjunct the sets and alter the relation.
That is to say, assume that information flows from the universal set of souls to some other set via the conjunctive subset of souls that can transmit information (in this case Earwans). 
Why Earwa?  Just because it had to be somewhere, I guess. 

The source of the judgement is more a question than the damnation itself, I think. 
Is it just an unconcious collective manifestation of Earwans?  The nonmen, humans or just sorcerers?  Are the gods collective lumps of judgement and reality altering power?  Or is there some omniscient entity imposing an alien judgement system on everything.  If so why sorcerers etc etc

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 07:22:36 pm »
Quote from: Church
So it does all seem to come down to where judgment emanates from then... can't wait for some answers in TUC!

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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 07:22:43 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Crackpot: Earwa is in the center of the universe and the sun revolves around it. ;)  That's how they were eventually able to find it, they kept going towards the center.

I try to think of their quest like this:  Imagine if human scientists on Earth discovered a way to prove the soul exists.  Imagine if in pursuing their studies of the physical soul they discovered the physical soul continues to exist after death and decomposition of the body. Imagine if in pursuing their studies that they found out that souls undergo unimaginable torment because they are damned.  Imagine if in pursuing their studies they tested every single possible religion, isolated variables, kept people sin-free by every measure of a religion to no avail--every soul tested suffered eternal damnation, it did not matter how good you were or how evil you were, everyone was damned because no religion or belief system had gotten it right.

This would cause all sorts of consternation, jihads etc, eventually you would probably have the sect of humanity that won out create a species wide initiative to explore the universe in an attempt to discover a way to circumvent damnation. 

All worlds are the same, all souled creatures there are damned no matter what.  The sentient machine world (aka Cybertron. ;)) of Wutteat was damned, all worlds are damned because absolutely no world has gotten the magical belief lottery precisely correct.

But, like a monkey typing shakespeare, somewhere evolution has to have gotten it right, right?  Earwa is the first world where it is possible, where evolution may have resulted in a species that can shape damnation, if sorcery is an evolved ability in may be singularly important.  The question is, who evolved it first?  Men/Halaroi?  Nonmen/Cunoroi?  Or were the Cunoroi other space farers who found Earwa long before the Inchoroi and attempt to use the world to escape damnation just as the Inchoroi want to?  Or were the Cunoroi fallen angels?  Angels that attempted to intervene, or come inward only to be unable to return outside?

So many questions.

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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 07:22:50 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
As many answers as TUC will give (hopefully) on these questions, what puzzles me more is: what won't be answered? And what will the final books really revolve around? Concerning Earwa, the coming Apocalypse, etc. Many variables.

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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 07:22:56 pm »
Quote from: Philippe
Quote from: lockesnow
Crackpot: Earwa is in the center of the universe and the sun revolves around it. ;)  That's how they were eventually able to find it, they kept going towards the center.

Have you read Anathem? (I'm about to SPOIL it entirely if you haven't)

(click to show/hide)

When Wutteät names Eärwa as the "Promised World", I couldn't help but imagine that a similar Platonism-esque cosmic system might be operating here as well. Perhaps Eärwa is so important since it's the source of all moral standards (and thus determines the criteria for damnation)? Given that the Gods are "Outside" of Eärwa, it would then make sense that the population of Eärwa (or more importantly, the reduction of the population of Eärwa to 144,000) would be the goal of the Inchoroi, rather than the Gods themselves. Perhaps those entities are only magnifying the collective judgment of Eärwans (as Curethan suggested above) so that it applies to all worlds?

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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 07:23:03 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
Quote from: lockesnow
This would cause all sorts of consternation

Hilarious understatement!  :lol:  If damnation is as bad as Shaeönanra makes it out to be in The False Sun, the dread of it is bad enough to make people commit any atrocity to avoid it.

(I actually happen to think that 'Damnation' as revealed by the Inverse Fire is an inchoroi lie, some kind of neuromanipulation, but that doesn't mean Damnation itself is a lie or peaches and cream. You still burn forever, the fire just isn't THAT hot.)

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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 07:23:09 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I did make the point that the Sil, the Inchoroi King, might have left a really, really bad porn around and then forgot about it by the time that the Nonmen finally got to the Ark and found it.

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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 07:23:15 pm »
Quote from: Sideris
Quote from: Madness
I did make the point that the Sil, the Inchoroi King, might have left a really, really bad porn around and then forgot about it by the time that the Nonmen finally got to the Ark and found it.

Well, you get bored on a trip through space...got to entertain oneself somehow... It's always a horror, though, when you brothers (cousins? I don't even know how the Twins may be related to Sil), get hold of the tapes, upload it and then suddenly, 'Two Inchoroi, One Cup' (now slapped with the title Inverse Fire) is shown to the Nonmen, thereby unraveling civilization.

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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 07:23:21 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Inverse Fire is probably just the ships computer, and the "fire" in question is a computer monitor/hologram monitor.

Try and imagine a source of light that is not sorcerous.  A source of light that is not fire.   A source of light that is not the sun.  Of course it's electric, but to the Cunoroi or humans it's an inverse fire, a light that is not hot.

Mek wanted to get back in because he needed to know the results of Inchoroi Idol, who won?  Did his favorite get voted off?  He only voted 15 times, goddamn text fees.

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 07:23:27 pm »
Quote from: sciborg2
One thing that is interesting to me is Earwa's model of consciousness and how it relates to the Soul.

If you look at panpsychism and quantum consciousness, there's the belief that the Mind is an intrinsic part of the universe, that Good (and maybe Evil) can be found at the Planck scale.

Somehow, people tap into this Mind, and thereby gain a Soul. Akka says as much in TTT:

"Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside
leaked into the world."


We also see this apprehension of the Mind as something Kellhus seems to get closer to, when he explains the mechanics of sorcery to Akka as apprehension of the God. This seems to fit in with the idea that ego, and the presumed individuality that comes with it, is an illusion.

We know that Earwa is not causally closed because of the Outside, and events within it can -at least seemingly- be influenced by the Hundred.

What I'm not sure of is how this may or may not explain Kellhus's fire watching abilities, and what this ability means for the conclusion of TUC. I think this unexplained ability may be the key to Kellhus's plans.