Chorae and the Judging Eye

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TheDeliverator

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« on: June 24, 2013, 01:12:49 am »
Almost started a new thread, but perhaps this one will suffice.

Chorae were created by the Inchoroi, yet Mimara sees the chorae she found in Cil-Aujas as something holy.  From The WLW prologue: "The Judging Eye opens, and the thing is miraculously transformed.  Suddenly she sees it for what it truly is: a white burning tear of god."

How can an artifact created by Inchoroi be holy (for lack of a better term ATM)?  Is the JE fallible or unable to truly define all things Inchoroi?  Or does the JE follow\make real, what the consensus or Earwa believe?  Creating your own reality, as it were.  Help!

Have I missed a discussion on this?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 01:30:30 am by TheDeliverator »

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2013, 01:29:21 am »
Chorae where made by Aporetic schoolman. It was a Nonman school bent on the negation of sorcery. The Megecca where Aporetic schoolman and they helped create the Chorae for the Inchoroi.

more info here:
http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=769.0

Though I haven't looked throuhg that whole post there should be some good info there for you to fill in some gaps.
Also remember that there is still a lot of mystery surrounding the JE and also that specific scene too.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 01:32:33 am by Wilshire »
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TheDeliverator

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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2013, 01:33:28 am »
Chorae where made by Aporetic schoolman. It was a Nonman school bent on the negation of sorcery. The Megecca where Aporetic schoolman and they helped create the Chorae for the Inchoroi.

more info here:
http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=769.0

OK.  Always the missed details...

One more.  So chorae were were created for the Inchoroi, and that makes all the difference?

Wilshire

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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2013, 01:37:41 am »
All the difference for what?

Its just a forbidden branch of sorcery. So was the Wathi doll that Akka has/had, or the Diamos that dear Iyokos wields/wielded.

I don't think that some schoolman giving aliens some of their technology is particularly important.
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TheDeliverator

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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2013, 01:43:22 am »
All the difference for what?

Its just a forbidden branch of sorcery. So was the Wathi doll that Akka has/had, or the Diamos that dear Iyokos wields/wielded.

I was thinking in terms of the JE.

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2013, 01:46:56 am »


One more.  So chorae were were created for the Inchoroi, and that makes all the difference?

I'm confused now :P. I thought you were asking about the chorae. I'm here now if you want to use that forum instant message. Go to the forum homepage and click the (+) on the Quorum section near the top.
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TheDeliverator

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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2013, 01:59:35 am »


One more.  So chorae were were created for the Inchoroi, and that makes all the difference?

I'm confused now :P. I thought you were asking about the chorae. I'm here now if you want to use that forum instant message. Go to the forum homepage and click the (+) on the Quorum section near the top.

I'd rather my errors\queries be on the forum record.

I should have been more clear.  My org. post was about how the JE sees the chorae...

Judging by what I have just learned, Aporetic sorcery is not viewed as not damnable by the Gods\JE.   Even though it is "just a forbidden branch of sorcery..."  I'm assuming this is because it's basis is negating sorcery.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 02:01:09 am by TheDeliverator »

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2013, 02:10:24 am »
Oh ok well I guess I missed that. I got tripped up on your description of Chorae and didnt answer any of your questions.

Is the JE fallible?
There is no direct or explicit evidence that TJE has 'judged' something incorrectly. Everything that Mim has seen seems to be more or less plausible.

Unable to define all things Inchoroi?
I don't think Mim has seen anything Inchoroi.

Making reality?
This is an interesting question that really delves into the metaphysics of Earwa. As far as we have been told, the Eye just sees things as they 'truely' are. But I have no idea if that is true. Its possible that it sees only what Mim wants to see, or that its some special manipulated artifact that Kellhus controls, etc etc. Insert conspiracy theory here.

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Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 02:13:59 am »
And about the Aporos not being damnable. I'd say that it is possible for the schoolman himself to be damned by the sorcery he used to create the Chorae, while the Chorae itself is not. Did that make sense? Maybe some god entity likes irony and damns his followers but not items they craft.
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TheDeliverator

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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2013, 02:27:57 am »
Unable to define all things Inchoroi?
I don't think Mim has seen anything Inchoroi.

Which leads back to me believing in my OP (falsely), that the Inchoroi had created the chorae.  Which lead to believing the JE was viewing one of their creations as holy.  I was leading towards something I believe I read here, along the lines of the Gods not being able to see the Inchoroi or the Consult...  Or was it the No God.  Or neither and another mistake.  I'm on info. overload at the moment and no doubt have not processed everything I've read over the last few days.

And about the Aprons not being damnable. I'd say that it is possible for the schoolman himself to be damned by the sorcery he used to create the Chorae, while the Chorae itself is not. Did that make sense? Maybe some god entity likes irony and damns his followers but not items they craft.

Yes, it makes sense.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 02:32:20 am by TheDeliverator »

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2013, 02:33:07 am »
haha don't worry about it. I like answering questions so if keep asking if you need too.
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2013, 02:40:04 pm »
This can be its own thread - I'm actually surprised there isn't one already.

As there isn't a pertinent thread, beyond the discussion Wilshire already linked, I thought I'd drag a couple other pieces of speculation - not necessarily stuff I agree with but Thorsten offers a valid stab.

Thorsten's Metaphysics of Earwa - Pre-TJE

Quote from: Thorsten

The Chorae

The Trinkets fall rather nicely into this concept. If sorcery is a Onefold Thought where an insinuation of more in the perceived reality is turned into perceived reality by creating absolute meaning, the Chorae would prevent this by removing the insinuations of more. That is precisely why they are felt by a sorcerer as an absence in the onta (DB, Ch.1). The name is presumably derived from

χωρη - proper place

and this is literally what the Trinkets do - they locally force true reality to be in its 'proper place', i.e. to equal perceived reality. In other words, they destroy reality in order to reinforce an illusion of perception. Small wonder a sorcery based on contradiction like the Aporos was necessary for their creation!

Interestingly enough, it seems the Chorae must touch skin to offer protection from sorcery (WP, Ch.18). The question remains as to why Chorae destroy sorcerers as soon as they have actually used sorcery. It seems in most cases sorcerers touched by a Chorae turn to salt (e.g. TT, Ch. 16), but in some cases, cf. the end of MoŽnghus, this does not seem to happen. Partially, the explanation may be that Chorae are needed by RSB as a device for the story - without their threat, given the power of sorcery, there would be no need for conventional warfare with armies. It is chiefly the threat of Chorae bowmen which prevents sorcery from becoming the chief means of warfare, so this property of the Chorae is rather needed.

But (leaving aside the salt as a nice dramatic touch) it would also fit into the pattern outlined here. A sorcerer using sorcery leans out of the reality perceived by other people by creating absolute meaning. This other reality (created by the super-consciousness of the Thousandfold Thought) adjusts and is forced locally to agree with the sorcerer's reality. But this adjustment may not be perfect, so in a sense a sorcerer after using sorcery never quite remains in the same reality as other people. Given that true reality is sufficiently indefinite, that doesn't matter. The Chorae however force true reality to agree with perceived reality and hence leave no place for the slightly different reality of the sorcerer, therefore destroying him.

There are also mentions of 'anarcane ground' (TT, Gl. 'Arithau') in the text on which renders sorcery impotent. This may or may not fall into the ideas developed here, there's simply not enough information to judge how anarcane ground works.

Thorsten's Metaphysics of Earwa II - Post-TJE

Quote from: Thorsten
The Judging Eye

The strongest evidence that Kellhus does in fact not represent the God is given by what Mimara's Judging Eye sees in Achamian. Supposedly the Judging Eye should show an objective moral judgement (we have at present no way of really knowing if that is the case, but I'm willing to accept the idea for the moment). Since Kellhus claimed he can rewrite the holy texts and in doing so save the sorcerers from damnation, but Mimara continues do see the damnation of sorcerers, it would follow that Kellhus' claim is wrong. And if Kellhus' claims to spiritual matters are wrong, he cannot be a prophet or represent the God. This would make him appear as someone who poses as a prophet to make use of the belief of others for his own ends - just what he started out to do back in DB.

The truly interesting question is - what does Mimara see when she looks at Kellhus with the Judging Eye? If he is a prophet who just happens to be using the Gnosis, then he may not be damned, but if he is a sorcerer who would like to appear as a prophet, then the Judging Eye would show him as damned just like other sorcerers. Unfortunately, we don't know (although it's a bit of a stretch that Mimara who spent time close to Kellhus wouldn't know and Achamian wouldn't ask her).

In the terminology developed before, what actually is the Judging Eye? It would be something like the ability to see the world while tapping the super-consciousness that is the God, i.e. to see more than one's own judgement, but rather a collective judgement.

The Chorae

Previously I argued that Chorea 'force true reality to be in its 'proper place', i.e. to equal perceived reality [i.e. the God]' and that they can therefore be used to 'anchor' something in reality (in fact, I argued that this is their function for the No-God). This idea is confirmed rather nicely in JE.

At the beginning of the key scene in Ch. 16 Mimara observes how reality seems to move whereas the Chorae remains steady: 'a sense that it is not theTrinket that moves so much as it is the whole of creation about it'. Later she uses the Judging Eye to see 'through' the Chorae, and she finds a light, a 'point of luminous white certainty' which she sees as a Tear of God. That is precisely what one would expect to happen in my theory of Chorae. The Judging Eye shows the objective moral judgement of something. The God is emergent from reality perceiving itself in the minds of people. The Chorae forces true reality to be perceived reality, i.e. it shapes the reality of the God out of chaos - of course that act is identical to the nature of the God, and that is what the Judging Eye perceives. This, in fact, is my main argument why the explanation of what the Judging Eye is is correct - it agrees with everything we can deduce about Chorae.

Achamian is astonished at what Mimara does with the Chorae - he is of the opinion that Hell should have swallowed them whole, Chorae or not. But I don't think that could happen - a Topos, the Outside, should be no more able to swallow a Chorae as a sorcerer should be able to use it. Thus, my conclusion is that Achamian is in error here. After all - how could he know?

I think we simply don't know enough, Deliverator.

A friend of mine and I tried to narrow it down to a specific linguistic statement: Anyone looking at any Chorae with the Judging Eye would see what Mimara saw.

Does that reflect aspects of Aporetic sorcery? Aporos is only historically considered a forbidden branch of sorcery among the Nonmen because of their Quyan Civil Wars before the Fall of the Ark.

Is the Judging Eye actually the perception of righteous Judgment in Earwa?

Do Mimara's words about guarding the Gates actually make the difference and persuade the Wight, rather than the obvious Chorae/Judging Eye phenomenon?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2013, 10:41:54 pm »
Ah Mimara's words. There is more there.
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EkyannusIII

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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 05:46:38 pm »
I'm away from my books at the moment (and don't recall TJE too clearly to be honest...) so forgive me if I have forgotten something, but I wanted to point this out:



Thorsten's Metaphysics of Earwa II - Post-TJE

Quote from: Thorsten
The Judging Eye

The strongest evidence that Kellhus does in fact not represent the God is given by what Mimara's Judging Eye sees in Achamian. Supposedly the Judging Eye should show an objective moral judgement (we have at present no way of really knowing if that is the case, but I'm willing to accept the idea for the moment). Since Kellhus claimed he can rewrite the holy texts and in doing so save the sorcerers from damnation, but Mimara continues do see the damnation of sorcerers, it would follow that Kellhus' claim is wrong. And if Kellhus' claims to spiritual matters are wrong, he cannot be a prophet or represent the God. This would make him appear as someone who poses as a prophet to make use of the belief of others for his own ends - just what he started out to do back in DB.

It is a class A non-sequitur to derive the damnation of all sorcerors from the damnation of Achamian, because Akka has 1.) Publically renounced Kellhus, whom he knows to be the Harbinger, and 2.) Akka is the only Wizard in the entire Three Seas, which means his practice of sorcery is well outside whatever boundaries Zaudunyanni Inrithism may set to newly legitimate conjuring.  In other words, Akka is not an adeqautely representative sample, because his individual situation is such that factors other than sorcery prevent him from benefiting from Kellhus' salvation even if every word from Kell's mouth is undiluted truth.




Quote
The truly interesting question is - what does Mimara see when she looks at Kellhus with the Judging Eye? ... Unfortunately, we don't know (although it's a bit of a stretch that Mimara who spent time close to Kellhus wouldn't know and Achamian wouldn't ask her).


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What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 07:09:22 pm »
100% agree. Also, remember, Achamian was in the process of lying to the Skin-Eaters and leading them all to their eventual death. A groesome and terrible journey that ends with the entire band's death. This this weighed on his soul? I do.

If not that, well, how about all the hundreds and thousands that his Gnosis has burned to cinders? What difference would it make if you murded all those people 1 by 1 with a knife, or all at once in a big fire? To me, not much.

It just so happens that magic in Earwa tends to kill people rather than save them. That doesn't mean that digging a tunnel with the Gnosis would damn you, just that a sorcerer tends to be more likely to be damned because of his acts of atrocity, rather than the simple use of magic itself. It seems far to simple, and doesn't make much sense, to assume that All sorcerers are damned because thats what it says in a book.

Though, we could also talk about objective/subjective reality in Earwa, and say that if everyone believed schoolmen damned, then its possible that they would be. But, if that was the only reason for the damnation, then if the general concencous changed, so too would their fate.

All in all, the JE provides only the most simplistic and simpleminded proof of damnnation. We don't even know if its right, how it works, and who is running the damnnation machine. A sample of one is not proof of anything. It far more likely to be a red h haring provided to us by Bakker to throw us off the scent.

Or at least, thats what I think.
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