Bakker's One Mistake?

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Ozark

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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2014, 11:50:19 pm »
I'm doing a re-read in anticipation of the new book and noticed this :

Doesn't Simas' admonition that one has to be skeptical of one's own skepticism come dangerously close to apprehending paradox for someone later revealed to be a skin-spy?

Or am I misreading this?

Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2014, 03:16:16 am »
Well he is likely an exception to the paradox rule, because one needs a soul to comprehend a paradox. What is sorcery but holding two meaning, one spoken and one unspoken, within the mind at once? Any skin-spy that can wield sorcery has a soul, and can therefore comprehend a paradox.
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Bolivar

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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2014, 07:49:56 pm »
A skin-spy with the ability to work sorcery, the Shriah of the Thousand Temples said, grimacing with exertion. A skin-spy with a soul. And the grand old sorcerer realized he had known all along.

Aural

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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2014, 08:28:52 pm »
How did that SS grow a soul anyway?

MG

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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2014, 12:54:55 am »
How did that SS grow a soul anyway?

Gotta be a grafting, right?  Either Consult or Moenghus grafted a heart (?) with the gift of the few into the skin spies chest?

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2014, 04:42:08 pm »
How did that SS grow a soul anyway?

The Inchoroi/Consult do not know, according to Maithanet/Moe/Kellhus (whoever said it, I don't remember). If so, they'd just make an army of them and obliterate the world.

Wonder how the Gods feel of their glimpse in the Inchoroi's mysterious Teckne? How does that fit into their false mosaic of omnipotence?
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MG

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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2014, 09:23:49 pm »
Maybe constructing a skin spy begins with deboning a human?  And Simias was randomly one of the few who retained that capacity through all the rebuilding?  Calling it now: Simias is the reconstructed Seswatha and he's still at large!!!

Ozark

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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2014, 01:50:17 am »
I was sort of thinking of Simas as a "skin spy - Wathi doll" but it does make sense that it had to be some sort of accidental rare occurrence.

If the Inchies could either make ensouled skin spies, or count on it occurring randomly at any appreciable rate, it would be game over for the humans of Earwa.

It only makes sense that this single or exceedingly rare freak occurrence would be embedded at the Mandate, rather than being used to chuck fireballs at nomadic northern tribes.

But, does anyone have a proposal on how such a freak cosmic occurrence could take place?

Francis Buck

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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2014, 02:59:47 am »
But, does anyone have a proposal on how such a freak cosmic occurrence could take place?

At this point I just don't think we know enough about the metaphysics of Earwa -- or of the Tekne -- to say. Presumably though, if you fuck around with making "life" for long enough, eventually something will awaken. Bakker said in an interview somewhere that even animals can (albeit rarely) awaken enough to have a soul. For example I personally suspect that snakes might actually have souls, which is either the cause -- or a result of -- their holiness, as well as being the reason the Cishaurim use them to see (or the reason that they even CAN use them).

Kellais

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« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2014, 01:53:05 pm »
I think the line about "crimes existing only so long as men are deceived" is a very big tell, particularly in relation to the nature of damnation and the Hundred's relationship to existence. To put it simply, damnation (existential punishment for "crimes") only exists because the Outside is a distorted reflection of mankind's (obviously anthropomorphized) set of subconscious standards for right/wrong, which as we know are largely bullshit -- ... . But, replace the dominant intellect on Earwa with something closer to you own sensibilities -- as the Consult intends to do -- and all those "crimes" are different. Or better yet, non-existent.

So you think the outside is a "law-mirror" and that if you change the one reflected in it, than you changed the...consequences?
But how then is Earwa the problem and not the ones reflected? And why then should anyone not-human be especially fucked?
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MG

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« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2014, 07:50:51 pm »
@ Ozark - put me down for Simas as a Moenghus creation!  Not a fluke!  That's why Maitha knew he could press it just so...

@ Kellais - i'm thinking that the Nonmen, men, and Inchoroi are all related like billions of years ago, in fact, the separation started as far back as 2015 CE