Rupert Sheldrake

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Wilshire

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« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2013, 03:19:34 pm »
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2) how many of you are just playing advocatus diaboli in here?
Sometimes I forget which is which, but pretty much most of the time.

As far as working scientifically.... I took some labs in college and was an intern for my prof for a summer.... which means that I haven't done anything :P
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sciborg2

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« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2013, 04:45:59 pm »
No! Space must live! Watch this inspirational (if not somewhat biased) video about how awesome space is.
Actually, don't bother lol it won't change your mind, they just make me happy.

In all seriousness though, I think it raises some interesting points and some interesting facts that I didn't know before I watched it. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about the clips.

2 short parts :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIZU8cQWXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFO2usVjfQc

Oh, I think space research is interesting (thanks for the links!), but is it really the best use of funding if we're trying to be pragmatic?

I should qualify my desire to cut linguistic funding out - linguistics related to education should be kept, but there are studies that seem to be based around satisfaction of curiosity. [Probably a host of studies we can cut in a variety of fields, not to mention we should also consider tax payer money going into public universities.]

What I'm really getting at is if the public at large is more interested in Psi than space, do government appointed experts have the right to say one is more valuable to us than the other? I suppose you can try and justify space programs by noting possibly colonization benefits?

Seems like research into urban farming, or this Soylent stuff, [or computer science], would be of more immediate use than learning about the cosmos or trying to pin down what miniscule amount of telekinetic power may exist. [In those cases experts can supersede public opinion, but deciding whether money goes to space or Psi might be better put to referendums of some sort.]
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 04:49:11 pm by sciborg2 »

Wilshire

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« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2013, 05:16:41 pm »
I agree with you there... But can you imagine, at least in America, letting the public decide what research is important and what is not? .... I shudder just thinking about it.

The Ph.D student that I worked with was having trouble getting funding for his research for the potential uses of a byproduct of biofuel production. He was researching ways to turn an otherwise largely unknown and discarded "waste" into something extremely valuable. At the same time, a TA was talking about how he got a huge grant to go trekking around Europe for months, visiting and participating in various archaeological digs. Apparently the universitie's approval board was filled with English and Anthropologist Ph.D's,

To me.... thats just insane. Why spend thousands of dollars sending some guy to vacation in Europe (sure he'll do some work, but you don't go backpacking around Europe just because of the research opportunities)  rather than fund potentially groundbreaking studies into biofuel?

btw glad you liked the video's. I know the internet has turned him into a pop-science figure, and many people dismiss anything he has to say now simply because of that, but I've found that he has a lot of balanced and reasonable views on many issues (not to mention he's so passionate its hard not to get excited listening to his speeches/rants).
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sciborg2

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« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2013, 05:47:01 pm »
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I agree with you there... But can you imagine, at least in America, letting the public decide what research is important and what is not? .... I shudder just thinking about it.

Oh, I think whatever left over funding people want to use for Psi or Space should be left to public decision. More practical considerations should have more input from experts.

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To me.... thats just insane. Why spend thousands of dollars sending some guy to vacation in Europe (sure he'll do some work, but you don't go backpacking around Europe just because of the research opportunities)  rather than fund potentially groundbreaking studies into biofuel?

Oh, I have a huge problem with what I see as excessive funding for the humanities. Not exactly money down the drain but sometimes you have to wonder how much time is possibly wasted in the school curriculum that could be better spent.

But that seems like a particularly egregious example.

Royce

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« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2013, 06:15:07 pm »
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Hmm...after reading this thread, i wonder about two things:

1) how many of you know how to work scientifically (is that a word?) aka how many of you are academics/working in scientific fields and not just readers of some academic work (or even pseudo-academic work)?

2) how many of you are just playing advocatus diaboli in here?

For my money, the most stringent and well-flowing arguments were made by anor (which is not to say that i agree with all his statments). Disclaimer: Not counting Madness here...he obviously works as an academic (i hope? at least you know how to build an argument and you have good structure in your posts). But he didn't contribute as much (post count wise) as others.

I'm not trying to be a troll here...this is truly what i was thinking about when reading this thread.

I am not to be taken very seriously in any way,since I don`t have the qualities you are looking for.Have not worked scientifically,nor am I an academic.Just having a conversation,that is all :) I missed the list of requirements you needed to participate.

Wilshire

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« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2013, 08:03:38 pm »
I missed the list of requirements you needed to participate.

lol requirements. This is a place for doing just that, having conversations with people who have vastly different backgrounds and experiences to draw from. This is the TSA noosphere. There should be no in-group that denies the access to comments on any of these topics.
Kellais was probably just wondering if anyone actually knew what they where talking about  :P
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sciborg2

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« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2013, 08:30:53 pm »
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Kellais was probably just wondering if anyone actually knew what they where talking about  :P

But coming into a discussion and randomly stating how you like one poster over the others isn't really useful to the interlocutors involved.

And I say that as someone who would not want to see public funding given to Psi studies. But then I'm wary about where tax payer money goes in a whole host of different areas.

Wilshire

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« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2013, 01:47:47 am »
sure it is, everyone likes a little ego boost. you're far to cynical.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2013, 02:03:28 am »
sure it is, everyone likes a little ego boost. you're far to cynical.

But Kellian's post was addressed to Anor's interlocutors - I'm supposing you and Royce? Maybe me as well, though my position, I suspect, leaves me in partial contention with both sides depending on what else Anor believes in unworthy of public funding.

So saying, "Anor's arguments are better than yours, it brings all the boys to the yard", doesn't really offer any persuasive additions to the debate.

It doesn't help us to decide anything, unless you plan to reevaluate your entire understanding of science and research on account of some person named Kellian on the internet.

Royce

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« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2013, 06:34:53 am »
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Kellais was probably just wondering if anyone actually knew what they where talking about

He probably was.He will let us know I guess :)

Look I started this tread out of pure curiosity.I knew perfectly well that there are people on this board with a background in academics and science.My hope was that we would have people who were arguing against Sheldrake,and someone who was sympathetic toward his views.I think I stated early on that I am in the middle here,taking no sides,though I probably was leaning more to one side as the discussion got out of hand :D 

Wilshire

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« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2013, 12:21:12 pm »
So saying, "Anor's arguments are better than yours, it brings all the boys to the yard", doesn't really offer
lmao.

I understand what you're saying, but I just don't think its worth calling out. This isn't as high brow as TPB, and I call it a win if someone who doesn't normally post decides to say something. We've got low enough participation as it is, try not to scare anyone off  :P, that's all I'm saying. But maybe I'm too lenient.
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Kellais

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« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2013, 02:25:03 pm »
lol...i'm sorry if i poked into a hornets nest here.

As i said, i was not trying to troll. Therefore, you read too much into it, Sci. It was not addressed to those who disargreed with anor. I just found his way of argumenting and staying "objective" the best IN MY OPINION. As someone who worked at University and in a field where concise and precise working is a must (mathematics) i just find that a lot of people are too...vague...in their construction of their points and discussions. And don't get me wrong - this is not meant as a "you guys can't" ... i know that i have too high a standard but after some years as a mathematician, i just...see...all that imprecision "ruling" our lives.
Another problem is the misrepresenting of points made by others...how many times does one poster "put words" into another posters mouth that this poster never "said" that way etc etc . It can get frustrating real fast (and somehow i guess we saw some of that in the discussion between Wilshire and anor).

Hrm...i think i come of way to snob-y...i'm sorry but i can't put it better into words (how imprecise of me, right?!  ;D ) ... but english is not my mother tongue so at least i have an excuse ;) Just kidding, all languages are imprecise tools (at least compared to math).

I'll stop now before everyone hates me  :-\

To sum it up : yeah, i was just wondering how many of you stand behind what they are defending/discussing...and as it seems i was right...not many (aka a lot of advocatus diaboli in here). That is not to say that the discussion can not be interesting, mind you. But i just find discussion where i get the impression that many participants play advocatus diaboli not very...satisfying. Gah...anyway...i'm talking in circles.

Suffice it to say (just to have something that is at least a bit on topic), i do think that this Mr. Sheldrake needs to proof his stuff (how did Madness put it - the onus is on him)...and not that he can come in, throw a theory in the room, and then just leave and say something like "Well, it was not disproved..." ... THAT is definitely not scientific work.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2013, 02:41:09 pm »
Sorry, wasn't trying to attack you. And I got your name wrong. Apologies  :-[

I'm just thinking more and more about discourse, and how it gets cluttered. I didn't mean to say you're a bad person or anything like that, I just thought an example of the imprecision you're noting in the discussion would help.

I think demanding a high standard is not only fine but something I know I'd like to approach, but without something concrete to note it's hard to pin down what anyone means when they critique dialogue.

Wilshire

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« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2013, 02:46:57 pm »
Glad its all straightens out before  Madness had to swoop in an scold us all  ;)
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Madness

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« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2013, 06:02:31 pm »
1) how many of you know how to work scientifically (is that a word?) aka how many of you are academics/working in scientific fields and not just readers of some academic work (or even pseudo-academic work)?

...

For my money, the most stringent and well-flowing arguments were made by anor (which is not to say that i agree with all his statments). Disclaimer: Not counting Madness here...he obviously works as an academic (i hope? at least you know how to build an argument and you have good structure in your posts). But he didn't contribute as much (post count wise) as others.

I claim my stake where and when I feel necessary.

My autobiography, however, remains, for now, shrouded in mystery ;). But to answer your question, directly, I would not qualify, at the moment, as a practicing academic. I'm still a mature undergrad.

I should qualify my desire to cut linguistic funding out - linguistics related to education should be kept, but there are studies that seem to be based around satisfaction of curiosity. [Probably a host of studies we can cut in a variety of fields, not to mention we should also consider tax payer money going into public universities.]

What I'm really getting at is if the public at large is more interested in Psi than space, do government appointed experts have the right to say one is more valuable to us than the other? I suppose you can try and justify space programs by noting possibly colonization benefits?

Seems like research into urban farming, or this Soylent stuff, [or computer science], would be of more immediate use than learning about the cosmos or trying to pin down what miniscule amount of telekinetic power may exist. [In those cases experts can supersede public opinion, but deciding whether money goes to space or Psi might be better put to referendums of some sort.]

I'm definitely interested in what qualifies as constituent criteria, which is necessary to distinguish what (individually or collectively) counts as worthy research according to our subjective subjectives.

I agree with you there... But can you imagine, at least in America, letting the public decide what research is important and what is not? .... I shudder just thinking about it.

...

To me.... thats just insane. Why spend thousands of dollars sending some guy to vacation in Europe (sure he'll do some work, but you don't go backpacking around Europe just because of the research opportunities)  rather than fund potentially groundbreaking studies into biofuel?

Vested interests ;).

Quote
To me.... thats just insane. Why spend thousands of dollars sending some guy to vacation in Europe (sure he'll do some work, but you don't go backpacking around Europe just because of the research opportunities)  rather than fund potentially groundbreaking studies into biofuel?

Oh, I have a huge problem with what I see as excessive funding for the humanities. Not exactly money down the drain but sometimes you have to wonder how much time is possibly wasted in the school curriculum that could be better spent.

But that seems like a particularly egregious example.

I am wondering. Specifically, what hits our bullet-points? And what are our bullet-points?

I am not to be taken very seriously in any way,since I don`t have the qualities you are looking for.Have not worked scientifically,nor am I an academic.Just having a conversation,that is all :) I missed the list of requirements you needed to participate.

I missed the list of requirements you needed to participate.

lol requirements. This is a place for doing just that, having conversations with people who have vastly different backgrounds and experiences to draw from. This is the TSA noosphere. There should be no in-group that denies the access to comments on any of these topics.
Kellais was probably just wondering if anyone actually knew what they where talking about  :P

This is the TSA noosphere. Nuff said. There are no requirements or restrictions. All shall have voice on the slog. I am the rule.

It doesn't help us to decide anything, unless you plan to reevaluate your entire understanding of science and research on account of some person named Kellian on the internet.

Maybe I do...

lol...i'm sorry if i poked into a hornets nest here.

...

this is not meant as a "you guys can't" ... i know that i have too high a standard but after some years as a mathematician, i just...see...all that imprecision "ruling" our lives.
Another problem is the misrepresenting of points made by others...how many times does one poster "put words" into another posters mouth that this poster never "said" that way etc etc . It can get frustrating real fast (and somehow i guess we saw some of that in the discussion between Wilshire and anor).

Hrm...i think i come of way to snob-y...i'm sorry but i can't put it better into words (how imprecise of me, right?!  ;D ) ... but english is not my mother tongue so at least i have an excuse ;) Just kidding, all languages are imprecise tools (at least compared to math).

...

Suffice it to say (just to have something that is at least a bit on topic), i do think that this Mr. Sheldrake needs to proof his stuff (how did Madness put it - the onus is on him)...and not that he can come in, throw a theory in the room, and then just leave and say something like "Well, it was not disproved..." ... THAT is definitely not scientific work.

You've done nothing wrong. I stirred the pot by suggesting that 'Science' as a whole owes a debt of knowledge to the plebletariat, the unwashed masses, including disabusing contentions, like "paranormal phenomenon." Either the phenomenon is evident to be studied or 'Science' hasn't accurately discerned what phenomenon it is they are trying to study in the first place. There are no "unstudiable" phenomenon, in my opinion.

I think demanding a high standard is not only fine but something I know I'd like to approach, but without something concrete to note it's hard to pin down what anyone means when they critique dialogue.

A noble aspiration. We are, all of us, deceived.

Glad its all straightens out before  Madness had to swoop in an scold us all  ;)

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