My spoil it all prediction for what the overall setting is

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Francis Buck

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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2013, 04:02:47 am »
@Callan
I guess I'm still just missing something. I mean by that logic then, Bakker would basically be saying that people with Arabic features are somehow naturally inclined towards Islam-esque religions and living in the desert?
Other way around - arabic features are naturally inclined to show up in latter generations as the best performing features in that environment.

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And also forming languages similar to Arab tongues? And this also applies to every other race?
Now that I'm not sure about. Keep in mind though that the Inuit (Eskimo's?) in real life have about 40 different names for snow. That's certainly language shaped by environment.

What do we have in the books that shows a direct similarity between arab tongues and the Ketyai?

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Like I said earlier, we already have examples of this not being true on Earth. You say that Earwa has deserts, and so we get desert people. If that's the case, then why aren't all of earth's desert people almost identical? Why do they have such a range of cultures and beliefs? I mean obviously certain behavioral systems would remain, but again, taking that all the way into language and culture, and up to the point of events as specific as the Vulgar Holy War or the Circumfix...I just don't get it.
Again, the other way around - your perception of arabic features - why couldn't that one come up as much as any other? If Bakker had chosen another race of RL desert dwellers for the features, would you argue why is this race the only type of desert race? Pot luck. Well okay, the author chose it, but chose it on the basis of it being pot luck in the world. Or so I hypothesize.

I'm not sure why your saying the
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is super specific somehow? Nor the circumfix - it's not a perfect cross, and it revolves around the human body (when not dismembered), so it has to conform to some similarity to any other device one might pin a person upon. Ironically there ideology must condition itself to the enviroment that is the human body (when not dismembered!)

Like I said earlier, I think you and I just have very different opinions on how this sort of situation would play out. Given this set of circumstances:

A:) A large group of humans of different races (though race really doesn't even matter at this point).

B:) Placing them onto an only vaguely Earth-like environment, in the sense that there are similar climates, but with a very different terrain that also contains many wildly exotic features (magic, gods, non-human intelligences).

C:) Taking said humans and erasing all memory of their history...

...And then, after several thousand years, having all of that reorganize itself into a set of civilizations that racially, culturally, and linguistically mirror the same set of events based on the planet and history that the races initially evolved on, despite all of the environmentally unique factors of Earwa...just makes no sense to me. And, as I've said, it's not like these are broad strokes. It comes down to some incredibly specific points: very similar religions (a bible analogue, a christ analogue, a crucifixion analogue, several biblical character analogues), and then specific historical movements of those religions and cultures, then extremely specific events within those specific historical movements -- I mean, what's the likelihood that not only would a Holy War happen, but also another Vulgar Holy War (I.E. the People's Crusade, which the VHW was based on)? And, again, I cite the fact that we have evidence that this doesn't happen here on earth. I don't really get your arguments against that particular point (why didn't people living in temperate regions all across the earth develop so similarly as you propose they would when put on earwa?). So given all of that, I'm assuming we're just approaching this from very different points of view. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that.

For what's it worth, since this thread is actually about trying to guess what the overall end-result of the setting is, I actually think the Bakkerverse will become more like our world, rather than starting from our own and working forward. In other words, my wager is that, somehow or someway (likely through some pseudo-victory of the Consult, or otherwise through the efforts of Kellhus), the universe becomes disenchanted, cutting off the Outside and "dis-ensouling" (there's a word) all life within, thus rendering the humans therein applicable to his blind-brain theory. And, of course, eliminating sorcery.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 04:06:52 am by Francis Buck »

Callan S.

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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2013, 06:25:17 am »
Nor the circumfix - it's not a perfect cross, and it revolves around the human body (when not dismembered), so it has to conform to some similarity to any other device one might pin a person upon. Ironically there ideology must condition itself to the enviroment that is the human body (when not dismembered!)

There is more than one way to skin a cat, but alas, in the end, you are always simply removing the skin from the cat. :P
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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2013, 03:16:43 pm »
If I've made any gross errors in here, it was not my intent to offend anyone.  As I said, I'm not an expert.  Simply an amateur with no formal training in anthropology, but an intense interest in this subject.  If anyone can clarify or debunk any of the crap I just spouted, please do!

Lol. Cultural and human migration are very complex beasts. You're missing a great swatch of commentary but seriously good for someone who's not been fed the academic diet, which is just a bulkier meal.

But you're guilty of another crime, Somnambulist. Ignorance of Earwan history...

There is a Chieftain-King named for all Four Tribes who "break the gates" between Eanna and Earwa. The Burnt Prophet is only the "most famous" Prophet of the Tusk.

Say, each of the 5 groups all consisted of extremest (within their own populations) who had a a tiny overlapping of belief. Like if an Inchoroi flew over the mountains, introduced some wacky religion to each of the separate tribes, and the ones that became followers of this new 'religion' eventually found themselves all wanting the same thing (in this case, to pass through the mountains). After they crossed the mountain the groups were too dissimilar to stay as a cohesive unit, and splintered back into their old tribal ways.

Whole tribes can subsist in very small areas of land. There's a number somewhere.

But +1 again to Inchoroi being digested culturally by humans as "of the Gods" - not all, certainly one.

I certainly agree that there needs to be some kind of mutual prohibition of cultural interaction in order to keep them separate for a long time, but this doesn't seem too difficult to imagine. Presumably, before the breaking of the gates, the tribes had little interaction and probably warred with each other. After the tribes went their own ways, there was a log of distance and geographical barriers that prevented interaction, not to mention old feuds and decades of bloody history.

We're definitely missing the Book of Tribes and the historical notation on the war between Shamans and Prophets.

This also brings up another question. If we assume that the gods did indeed "mingle with men", in the way Angeshrael's story describes, why aren't there any stories of them doing the same with the Nonmen? By the time Husyelt was having his little camp-fire conversation with Angeshrael, the Nonman were already fighting the Inchoroi, correct? This ties back into the higher concept of what the relationship between the Nonmen and the gods is. Did the gods make the World? I personally think they did, in a Demiurgic sense. But then where do the Nonmen fit in?

I've been re-reading WLW, and there was a conversation between Kellhus and the Nonman envoy.  The Nonman expressed that they didn't worship the gods, but the spaces in between the gods, and that was the reason they were damned.  So, either the nonmen rejected the gods at some point in their history, or they were not created by the gods (who eventually gained ascendancy and provenance over the world), and thus were damned (either way).  Still doesn't explain their provenance, but it's another piece to the puzzle, I think.

+1.

Something more is happening. I do like the elegance of assuming FB's distinction of cultural digestion above. Inchoroi fighting Nonmen/Gods visiting Humans could very well be two sides of the same coin. But as of the narrative, it seems 'gods' actually exist and "walk the world" (Yatwer visiting Sorweel).

A:) A large group of humans of different races (though race really doesn't even matter at this point).

B:) Placing them onto an only vaguely Earth-like environment, in the sense that there are similar climates, but with a very different terrain that also contains many wildly exotic features (magic, gods, non-human intelligences).

C:) Taking said humans and erasing all memory of their history...

...And then, after several thousand years, having all of that reorganize itself into a set of civilizations that racially, culturally, and linguistically mirror the same set of events based on the planet and history that the races initially evolved on, despite all of the environmentally unique factors of Earwa...just makes no sense to me. And, as I've said, it's not like these are broad strokes. It comes down to some incredibly specific points: very similar religions (a bible analogue, a christ analogue, a crucifixion analogue, several biblical character analogues), and then specific historical movements of those religions and cultures, then extremely specific events within those specific historical movements -- I mean, what's the likelihood that not only would a Holy War happen, but also another Vulgar Holy War (I.E. the People's Crusade, which the VHW was based on)? And, again, I cite the fact that we have evidence that this doesn't happen here on earth. I don't really get your arguments against that particular point (why didn't people living in temperate regions all across the earth develop so similarly as you propose they would when put on earwa?). So given all of that, I'm assuming we're just approaching this from very different points of view. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that.

For what's it worth, since this thread is actually about trying to guess what the overall end-result of the setting is, I actually think the Bakkerverse will become more like our world, rather than starting from our own and working forward. In other words, my wager is that, somehow or someway (likely through some pseudo-victory of the Consult, or otherwise through the efforts of Kellhus), the universe becomes disenchanted, cutting off the Outside and "dis-ensouling" (there's a word) all life within, thus rendering the humans therein applicable to his blind-brain theory. And, of course, eliminating sorcery.

+1 for thoughts. That is almost word for word a plot a friend of mine and I tried to write a couple years ago, btw ;). Except A) was with anthropomorphized animals and B) was minus the exotic features (like magic).
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locke

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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2013, 06:29:44 pm »
Thanks for that explanation Somnambulist. First of all, I just learned that your name is actually something because google didnt underline it in red. Cool :P

Really?  Oh man, if you haven't seen The Cabinet of Dr Caligari and you're reading Bakker, you're missing out on something you will REALLY Like.


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I don't even believe that the Gates in question (the Breaking of the Gates) are remotely physical.  Everything in Aspect Emperor indicates Gates are metaphysical.

Follow that line of thought long enough and you get to my crackpot that Earwa is HEAVEN, the Nonmen are seraphim, and the inchoroi have succeeded in waging war on heaven, ala Satan in Paradise Lost.  The humans in Earwa are the ones who have already attained salvation, thus the need to avoid getting kicked out of Heaven. 

or at least, that's my spoil it all take on the overall setting.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2013, 06:52:06 pm »
I don't even believe that the Gates in question (the Breaking of the Gates) are remotely physical.  Everything in Aspect Emperor indicates Gates are metaphysical.

Follow that line of thought long enough and you get to my crackpot that Earwa is HEAVEN, the Nonmen are seraphim, and the inchoroi have succeeded in waging war on heaven, ala Satan in Paradise Lost.  The humans in Earwa are the ones who have already attained salvation, thus the need to avoid getting kicked out of Heaven. 

or at least, that's my spoil it all take on the overall setting.

To expand on your theory (which I like very much btw), the Inchoroi (demons/devils) 'crashed' Heaven, found they couldn't destroy the Nonmen on their own, so looked to Eanna (Purgatory) to the humans there (who had not YET attained salvation like the Emwama had) and convinced them to storm Heaven, breaking the seals (gates) between realms, thus damning everyone for their transgressions in the process.

Or maybe Earwa is Eden instead of heaven itself.  The Inchoroi would then become the serpent.  If I remember correctly, before they birthed mouths, the Inchoroi spoke in the 'gasping tongue,' which sounds like how someone might describe the voice of a talking serpent.  Either way, I think the invading tribes damned themselves by breaking the gates.  I wonder what the Judging Eye would see when gazing upon a Xiuhianni in Eanna.  Did they escape damnation, I wonder, by refusing to enter Earwa?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 10:07:03 pm by Somnambulist »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2013, 02:35:31 am »
Wow! I did NOT see that coming. Imagine Bakker being some kind of religious propagandist.

But seriously, that little theory there ties in a lot of stuff. Bravo Locke/Somnambulist
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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2013, 02:51:57 am »
I just found this thread for the first time.  Very cool stuff. 


I do have to say that I hope it's not going to shift to major Sci-Fi.  I'd prefer it remain largely fantasy with the metaphysical stuff.  The ideas about Earwa being Heaven or Eden or something like that would be really cool.

I get the feeling that most readers expect some kind of major reveal eventually, but I have no good working theory of what it will be.  I sometimes feel like some of the most major reveals won't be that Earwa is Heaven or what have you but reveals about how much we've been deceived by aspects of the plot; like Seswatha fucking with us all from the beginning.

locke

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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2013, 09:06:52 am »
It's worth noting that I have a companion theory that Earwa is Hell (or Earth, but since Earth has it's fair share of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, is there really that much difference between Hell and Earth?).

In this companion theory.  The Cunoroi are fallen angels.  They have been kicked out of heaven/paradise and Cujara Cinmoi is famous for believing that it is better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven. 

But these fallen angels need servants of their own--because they are trying to be like God themselves, they want worshippers and followers in the little realms they're creating for themselves--So they stole mankind from heaven. they robbed the emwamma of their salvation, they were all saved souls who were kidnapped from heaven by the cunoroi so the cunoroi could torture them or make them into slaves/worshippers. 

The Inchoroi are angels who have not fallen, they are still filled with pure abiding infinite love, and have been sent to rescue the humans from the cunoroi or to exterminate the rebel fallen cunoroi, but because hell is a poisoned place when the inchoroi manifest on earwa (which angelic ciphrang are not supposed to do), their pure love manifests in sexual--over sexual--form.  The inchoroi fail to exterminate the cunoroi rebels, but perhaps humans can succeed where they can not.  So they go to humans that still have salvation, humans in heaven, and say to those five tribes of human souls, why don't you guys leave heaven, you guys need to go break the gates, your emwamma bretheren need you, they need you to save them.  You must stop the cunoroi, you must end the hell they have inflicted. 

So the saved souls leave heaven and then cannot get back.  The scylvendi realize this, and call the world a lie, it is not where they are supposed to be, it is nothing more than a deception, and death is the only way back (so long as you don't get recycled)

The inchoroi are desperate to shut off hell, to reseal the gates, only then can the cunoroi threat be contained and heaven restored to its former glory, the cunoroi have been contained because all their women are dead, but unfortunately, now their solution of using humans has backfired and they have to figure out a way to return the humans to heaven and prevent them from continually reincarnating in hell to suffer again and again.  they build a vehicle to stop the reincarnation recylcing that has kept mankind in hell for millenia, and they move this vehicle to pull in all of man's souls so they can be returned to heaven--it's sort of like being vaccumed and then 'beamed up' in star trek.  Unfortunately it didn't work the first time, but they're hoping to pull it off the second time.

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« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2013, 09:54:24 am »
Lol, if Earwa is a heaven metaphor, Bakker really has no defense against claims of misogyny.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2013, 12:37:38 am »
Depends on whether he supports that heaven as being good and the only way to go, I'd think.


Locke, I think that's worthwhile as it's own interesting and engaging plot. I'm not sure it's what's happening, but as its own story it sounds like a very good story. How'd they steal the emwamma?

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« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2013, 02:17:41 am »
How'd they steal the emwamma?
A la Eve's sharing of the Apple (knowledge). By relieving the emwama of their ignorance, they were stolen from heaven?

Or did you mean physically steal them? They just abducted them and brought them to the other side of the mountains, raised them, nurtured them, and then unleashed them back unto Earwa.

Or at least thats my best guess.
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« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2013, 07:38:35 am »
Oh I haven't fleshed it all out yet, but I really need to start collecting my various crackpots and collecting them into a coherent plot of their own. I drew several maps many years ago for a secondary world creation but got distracted when I started working out tectonic plate locations, followed by the trade balances and carrying capacities of the population centers (including the ones I wasn't planning on using). Died in the details.

The conceit of the series would be metaphysics made flesh, and I'd play with the ideas that there are metaphysical interacts with the mundane, for example, adoption, which we here on earth ascribe an idealistic metaphysical component (saying we're "Really" family when someone is adopted, "exactly the same,") in this example, adopting someone is not an idealistic thought coupled with legal force, adopting someone has both legal and genetic force, as the metaphysics causes the physical world to comply and they become your child.  But it should work in reverse too, and I haven't thought beyond this, but therein lies the fundamental tension, eh?  The enchanters vs the disenchanters...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 07:44:05 am by locke »

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« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2013, 02:04:24 pm »
Oh I haven't fleshed it all out yet, but I really need to start collecting my various crackpots and collecting them into a coherent plot of their own. I drew several maps many years ago for a secondary world creation but got distracted when I started working out tectonic plate locations, followed by the trade balances and carrying capacities of the population centers (including the ones I wasn't planning on using). Died in the details.

Lol. I would have very much wanted to see those mindmaps as well as the one Jorge had mentioned having done a few times on Old SA.

Though it won't stop me from trying to make your theory stronger by poking holes in it :).
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2013, 10:46:24 pm »
I just found this thread for the first time.  Very cool stuff. 


I do have to say that I hope it's not going to shift to major Sci-Fi.  I'd prefer it remain largely fantasy with the metaphysical stuff.  The ideas about Earwa being Heaven or Eden or something like that would be really cool.


I get the feeling that most readers expect some kind of major reveal eventually, but I have no good working theory of what it will be. I sometimes feel like some of the most major reveals won't be that Earwa is Heaven or what have you but reveals about how much we've been deceived by aspects of the plot; like Seswatha fucking with us all from the beginning.

Agreed on both accounts. I like that the series is a fantasy with some interesting elements sprinkled in that usually reserved for straight up sci-fi. Genetic engineering space aliens are an awesome thing to drop into an epic fantasy LOTR-subversion. It's the kind of thing that sounds absurd and would never work, but ends up being amazing and very appropriate in context.

As to the second point, I also don't think there will really be any massive, mind-shattering twists in the vein of Earwa being earth or heaven or something, but rather just a lot of "smaller" ones, including answers to much of the metaphysics, which to me is really no less dramatic than the alternative.

locke

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« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2013, 11:25:17 pm »
an author causing readers to commit transgressive behavior by participating in said transgressions innocently thinking they were only repeating the ritual, not realizing they were reading science fiction all along and violating the ritual by their very participation...  how delicious. :-p