Pronunciation

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Madness

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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2014, 12:59:52 pm »
Nice, Duskweaver.

I wish I had practiced my phonetic transcription more so I could do it with the ease which you are capable of (I will amend this in the future). I'll try for full transcriptions as I take breaks from studying for next weeks midterms.

However, in the moment:

- ʃɪʃ to begin Cishaurim
- 's to begin Cinmoi
- I might be losing the rules of transcript in memory but could we drop the ʊ entirely in Dunyain?
- I like your Sranc but I think I'd go n rather than ŋ.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2014, 04:30:39 pm »
- ʃɪʃ to begin Cishaurim
Sure does sound snaky that way, but I just like crunchy /k/ sounds. Cememketri, Cingulat and Cironj are the only Bakkerian names where I make the initial 'c' soft. (Well, there's also Cmiral, where I pronounce it as /ts/, after the Czech composer).

Quote
I might be losing the rules of transcript in memory but could we drop the ʊ entirely in Dunyain?
I don't see how. AFAIK, there's no real world language where a circumflex makes its vowel silent (usually it either lengthens it or marks the stressed syllable, or both), and I think you need some vowel sound between /d/ and /n/.

Quote
- I like your Sranc but I think I'd go n rather than ŋ.
I can't make my mouth do that comfortably. :-\

To be fair, that's probably something that gets said a lot around sranc, or at least it would if the muffled screaming didn't get in the way.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 04:33:31 pm by Duskweaver »
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Madness

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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2014, 04:56:47 pm »
- ʃɪʃ to begin Cishaurim
Sure does sound snaky that way, but I just like crunchy /k/ sounds. Cememketri, Cingulat and Cironj are the only Bakkerian names where I make the initial 'c' soft. (Well, there's also Cmiral, where I pronounce it as /ts/, after the Czech composer).


Lol - Cingulat is the only one of those three where I would use /s/ instead of /k/ ;).

Quote
I might be losing the rules of transcript in memory but could we drop the ʊ entirely in Dunyain?
I don't see how. AFAIK, there's no real world language where a circumflex makes its vowel silent (usually it either lengthens it or marks the stressed syllable, or both), and I think you need some vowel sound between /d/ and /n/.

That actually has been my one amateur criticism of Bakker's linguistic conventions is that I don't think he understood how accentuation/inflection works linguistically (then again, neither do I apparently).

Well then, I would agree with your /ʊ/ (I say Dun like Done) - though as an alternative I believe Wilshire was offering /u:/ instead, like Dune (if I have that right).

Quote
- I like your Sranc but I think I'd go n rather than ŋ.
I can't make my mouth do that comfortably. :-\

To be fair, that's probably something that gets said a lot around sranc, or at least it would if the muffled screaming didn't get in the way.

Lmao. Definitely some glottal stoppage there ;). I thought your Sranc was much more difficult than mine :P. I'm thinking /n/ makes it sound like "Srank" (tank, as FB highlighted above), whereas you seem to have gone "Srankh" (like ankh or francophone).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 05:03:22 pm by Madness »
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2014, 10:58:35 pm »
Well then, I would agree with your /ʊ/ (I say Dun like Done) - though as an alternative I believe Wilshire was offering /u:/ instead, like Dune (if I have that right).
The 'uh' sound in 'done' (or 'run' or 'mud') is /ʌ/.
/ʊ/ is the 'oo' in 'hook' or 'foot' or 'full'.
You're correct that the 'ooh' sound in 'dune' is /u:/.

Quote
I'm thinking /n/ makes it sound like "Srank" (tank, as FB highlighted above), whereas you seem to have gone "Srankh" (like ankh or francophone).
No. 'Tank' is /tæŋk/ and 'ankh' is just the same without the /t/. I'm pretty sure /nk/ is not a sound that actually exists in English.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Wilshire

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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2014, 02:16:22 am »
And yet, it's the only way to avoid ambiguity. The IPA isn't that hard to learn, honestly, guys. :D

Remember when this was said?  I still don't believe you, and I've got the last several comments of confusion as for the why :)
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2014, 09:37:26 am »
Remember when this was said?  I still don't believe you, and I've got the last several comments of confusion as for the why :)
The confusion was not caused by any ambiguity in the IPA. It was caused by Madness not correctly remembering it.

The IPA doesn't just say "this sound should sort of rhyme with that sound" or "it's sort of how you say [word] but oh wait you're from [country] so forget that because you people pronounce that completely differently". Each symbol precisely defines what you do with your mouth, lips and tongue to make the sound. Unless one of us is not a human or has some serious deformation of those parts of the anatomy, you and I can follow the IPA rules and pronounce the same symbols exactly the same way, even if we don't share a language. Well, in theory, anyway. Sounds that just plain don't exist in one's native tongue are still hard to get right, but at least you'd know you weren't getting it right.

If someone shows you a complex but valid mathematical proof and you don't understand it, that doesn't mean the proof (or mathematics itself) is wrong or ambiguous.

To put it another way, Gnosis beats Anagogis. :D

Also "the only way to avoid ambiguity" does not mean it's foolproof. Perhaps I should have said "the only way to have any chance of avoiding ambiguity". But that just demonstrates how imprecise the English language is. Quod errat fornicabitur demonstrandum. :P

Confucius was really onto something with that whole Rectification of Names thing...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 09:47:41 am by Duskweaver »
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Madness

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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2014, 02:54:32 pm »
Remember when this was said?  I still don't believe you, and I've got the last several comments of confusion as for the why :)
The confusion was not caused by any ambiguity in the IPA. It was caused by Madness not correctly remembering it.

This 100%. I should have just gotten my textbook from the stack (which I had pulled out of a box not three weeks ago for this exact thread) and made sure. I'm actually surprised my memory of that class is so good considering that it was during probably the worst year of my life - props to the Professor, she is fantastic!

The IPA doesn't just say "this sound should sort of rhyme with that sound" or "it's sort of how you say [word] but oh wait you're from [country] so forget that because you people pronounce that completely differently". Each symbol precisely defines what you do with your mouth, lips and tongue to make the sound. Unless one of us is not a human or has some serious deformation of those parts of the anatomy, you and I can follow the IPA rules and pronounce the same symbols exactly the same way, even if we don't share a language. Well, in theory, anyway. Sounds that just plain don't exist in one's native tongue are still hard to get right, but at least you'd know you weren't getting it right.

In other words, the phonetic alphabet distinguishes the different possible neuro-muscular coordinations the human mouth/throat can accomplish by which air can be moved through to make distinct sounds. Linguistics is actually a strange way to grok language - it's probably my first academic love and had I not already had my possible lifetime research mapped out before I ever thought about school, I might have pursued cognitive-linguistics through psychology (the institution I've started my academic at doesn't have a linguistics major, either :P).

Then there's also some theory that generalizes across all possible language rules - it works, insofar as it does, which is pretty much enough to decipher everything back to some possible proto-languages.

I always dreamed of a language that used all possible phonemes.

Anyhow - give me some time, next couple months are busy for me, but I will endeavour to correct and expand my knowledge.

Also "the only way to avoid ambiguity" does not mean it's foolproof. Perhaps I should have said "the only way to have any chance of avoiding ambiguity". But that just demonstrates how imprecise the English language is. Quod errat fornicabitur demonstrandum. :P

Confucius was really onto something with that whole Rectification of Names thing...

Duskweaver, you ever try your mind at Lojban or Ithkuil?

I definitely think there's something to the broad theoretical notions of his Rectification but I think his specifics were still bound by time and place ;).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 02:56:49 pm by Madness »
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Madness

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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2014, 12:34:54 pm »
Curethan linked a thread in the pronunciation thread that ended up in News/Announcements.

Just made Cnaiur's quote tag into a link. Too much to import. But Cniaur and carlsfini break it down phonetically (or try to). Not bad. Practicing my linguistics and logic are on the list for this summer.

Quote from: Cnaiur, Aug 2008
It would be fantastic if Scott could produce some audio to properly pronounce the names and words used in his books. He does provide some basic examples we can work with, but its not good enough! I can only suspect Scott wants us to use our own methods of pronunciations, based on our own language backgrounds.
If I had something of mine published and released, and fans came up to me pronouncing all the names and words wrong, I would get seriously annoyed! I would find myself wanting to correct them each and every time. A time-waster! Hide, Scott, hide! If I ever meet you I will maul you down Kellhus closed-fist style for proper pronunciations. <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: -->

Anyways...

Based on his examples and my language background these are some of the rules I use, and how I pronounce some of the names:


û = long u sound.

au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)

ai = long i sound

ei = long a sound

oi = oy (boy, toy)

y = (the tricky one) if its paired with a vowel, then its a long e sound (like meal, reel), and its also its own syllable. The vowel its paired with gets pronounced separately. If its alone in-between consonants its a short i sound (skill, shit, pick). If it precedes paired vowels or is in-between vowels, it is its own consonant sound (yes, yellow)

j = the j sound I use no traditional English method. Its either a consonant 'y' sound, or a revving j sound. Say shhhhhhh as in shut-up. Now rev that shhhh HARD, like water flowing aggresively, like a car revving HARD. (I'll use jjj to capture that revving j sound). I suspect its also used as a long e sound in certain words, like Cironj. (See-ron-nee?)

i = I mainly turn it into a long e sound, with some exceptions.


Dûnyain = Dune-yen
Gilcûnya = Gill-coon-nee-ah
Mog-Pharau = Mog Fah-ra-oo
Paro Inrau = Pa-row In-ra-oo ('pa' as in ma and pa, the short a sound. The same with 'ra')
(Imperial) Saik = Sike (although I sometimes wonder if its 'sake' - They are there for the Imperial's sake. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->)
Mysunsai = Me-sun-sigh
Isûphiryas = Ee-sue-fee-ree-us
Scylvendi = skill-ven-dee
Inchoroi = Een-kor-roy
Cûnuroi = Koo-nuh-roy ('nuh' like mud, nothing/nuh-thing, the short u sound)
Aujic = Ah-oo-jjj-ick
Ainoni = Eye-non-nee
Sheyic = Shay-yick
Kyranean = Kee-ra-nee-en ('en' is like saying the letter 'n')
Kyraneas = Kee-ra-nee-es ('es' is like saying the letter 's')
Kûniüric = Koo-nee-yur-rick
Kûniüri = Koo-nee-yur-ee
Ikurei = Ee-kur-ray
Istriya = Ee-stree-yah
Xerius = Zee-ree-us (like serious, as he always is <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> )
Conphas = Conf-es ('es' is like saying the letter 's')
Nansur = Nan-sir ('sir' like purr)
Skeaös = Skay-yose
Seökti = Say-yoke-tee
Mallahet = pronounced as its spelled; Mal-la-het
Conriya = Con-ree-yah
Nersei Proyas = Nair-say Proy-es
Krijates Ximenus = Kree-yaht-es Zee-men-us ('yaht' pronounced like the boat 'yacht')
Tydonni = Tie Domi <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: --> Otherwise, Ti-don-nee ('ti' like tit)


Now here are ones I'm really at a loss:

Cironj = See-ron-nee?
Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee

Eärwa = If it wasn't for that umlaut ä I would pronounce it as Ah-yar-wah ('yar' like yard without the d)
Eänna = If it wasn't for that umlaut ä I would pronounce it as Ah-yah-nah
Thoti Eännorean = Thot-ee Ah-yah-nor-ree-en
Eleäzaras = El-ah-yah-zar-as ('zar' like star)

I think that Eä would sound as ay, the long a sound, or more like Eh! like Canadians say eh? Eh? Eh!-rrr-wah??? Eh!-nnn-nah???
Or, long e, then the eh! sound. Like Ee-eh! E. Eh! Sports. Ee-ehrr-wah? Ee-ehn-nah?


Have any of you heard Scott pronounce Eärwa?

I also would like to check out some of your pronunciations to these words. Perhaps we could build a pronunciation lexicon. Even move it over to that wiki (good idea) someone started up. Until Scott ever decides to do audio recordings.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 12:37:43 pm by Madness »
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Aural

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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2014, 02:28:07 pm »
Quote
au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)

ai = long i sound

You're not making a distinction between 'au' and 'aü'? The first one I think is pronounced 'oh' (as in Aurang = oh-rang), the second is as you've highlighted, although I can't think of any word from the books that applies now.

'ai' is also pronounced the same as air, unless there is a diaeresis on the i. So 'Imperial Sake', 'my-sun-say', and 'ai-no-nigh'.

That's as far as I know. There might be exceptions though.

Some other words that I disagree with the pronunciation of (although I'm not sure why, just sounds better to me)

Kyranean = Kigh-ray-ni-en

Kûniüric = Koo-nigh-yoo-rick (koo with a short sound)

Ikurei = eye-koo-rey

Istriya = Es-trigh-yah

Xerius = Ze-righ-us

Conriya = Con-righ-yah

Xinemus = Zigh-nee-mus

Eärwa = eh-yar-wah

Eänna = eh-yah-nah

The 'û' = 'moon' sounds weird to me in every words except Psûkhe. That's why I pronounce Dûnyain with a short u sound, not a long one, the same with Isûphiryas regardless of what the book says.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 02:30:10 pm by Nskoghar »

Madness

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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2014, 11:26:11 pm »
Unfortunately, I don't think Cnaiur is going to respond here :(.

The link takes you to a ZTS thread, even though Curethan linked it here on SA in another thread - somehow a pronunciation thread ended up in News/Announcements... my guess is inattention/inaction on my part.
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Bogobor

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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2014, 04:45:31 pm »
Hi everyone.
Be interesting to know how do you pronounce these words:
Zsoronga
Csokis
Cironj
jnan
Ansacer ab Salajka
Pujkar
Ej’ulkiyah
qurraj
Kepfet ab Tanaj
Athjeäri
kjineta
Cinganjehoi ab Sakjal
Hasjinnet ab Skauras
Swarjuka
Fan’oukarji
Meärji
benjuka
elju
Cuäxaji
Cojirani ab Houk
Ghoset
Kutigha
Aghurzoi
Manghaput
Moënghus
Angka
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 05:44:43 pm by Bogobor »

MrGanondorf

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« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2014, 08:48:34 pm »
Welcome Bogobor!  I'll try to fonetykalee spell out some of these, the way i hear them in my head...

Zsoronga - zuh-suh-RON-guh
Csokis - SOK-is
Cironj - sih-RON-jeh
jnan - juh-NAN
Athjeari - ath-GEE-air-ee
kjineta - ki-jih-NET-ah
Cinganjehoi - king-GAHN-jeh-hoi
elju - EL-joo
Moenghus - MOE-eng-ghus

Wilshire

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« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2014, 07:19:12 pm »
MG I like you pronunciation guide :)
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Bogobor

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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2014, 11:03:41 am »
My thoughts about pronunciation:

Y /i/, /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
J /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
Q /kʷ/
C = K /k/
CC = KK = CK = KC /kː/
CH = KH /x/
H /h/
T /t/
TH /θ/
TT /tː/
P /p/
PH = F /f/
PP /pː/

Qûya /kʷuːja/
Cironj /kironʲ/ or /kiroɲ/
Nenciphon /nenkifon/
Sarcellus /sarkelːus/
Chiki /xiki/ or /çiki/

Garet Jax

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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2014, 02:08:21 pm »
My thoughts about pronunciation:

Y /i/, /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
J /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
Q /kʷ/
C = K /k/
CC = KK = CK = KC /kː/
CH = KH /x/
H /h/
T /t/
TH /θ/
TT /tː/
P /p/
PH = F /f/
PP /pː/

Qûya /kʷuːja/
Cironj /kironʲ/ or /kiroɲ/
Nenciphon /nenkifon/
Sarcellus /sarkelːus/
Chiki /xiki/ or /çiki/

We must get you on a tSA Cast, Bogobor.  We need to hear these.