Who'll live through TUC?

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Francis Buck

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« on: August 23, 2013, 12:04:17 am »
Did a search for a similar topic, didn't find one. Thought it might be fun to place our bets. I figure we'll at least attempt to restrict it to just the really essential characters. Have at it.

Live:
Kellhus -- This one's weird. Even though I don't really think he'll technically live through TUC, I also don't believe that will be the end of the character either, per se (becoming a god or something, etc.).

Achamian -- I think he's destined to make it until the end of the series.

Proyas -- Much like Akka, I think he's going to see it mostly through to the end.

Sorweel -- A tough one for me. I could easily see him dying in some significant way in TUC, but at the same time it would also be great to see him fifteen or twenty years from now, and he has a lot of potential to grow as a character. It's a tough call though, because his story could really go anywhere at this point.

Kelmomas -- I think this little rascal's going to make it out just fine, and likely end up becoming one hell of a villainous adult in the final series.

Die:
Esmi -- I personally think the WLW "predictions" are mostly true, so I think she'll be done for by the end of TUC. I'm not really sure where else her character has to go beyond that anyway.

Serwa & Moenghus -- Even if Sorweel survives, something tells me these two are doomed. Though I'd sooner bet Serwa making it out alive than I would Little Moe (and I'd like Serwa to live if only to have a strong female character that isn't a whore, slave, or concubine).

Mimara -- Another tough one. I definitely don't want her to die, but I do feel like there's a possibility of her perishing in childbirth (or soon after), forcing Akka to raise the child alone, thus becoming the sort of ultimate teacher: a parent. The only thing holding me back is what exactly the Judging-Eye's purpose in the story is. It seems like something that could become very integral to the end of the series, but it's also possible she may pass her gift on to the baby.

Fanayal -- I think he'll go down in TUC, with his power-base being taken over by Psatma, and thus Yatwer (and possibly Meppa).


I feel like I'm missing a big player or two, but I'm sure you guys will point them out.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 05:33:15 pm by Francis Buck »

Madness

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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2013, 01:07:36 pm »
Almost positive that Kellhus will appear to die by the end of TUC...

I think Esmenet and Achamian will live because they need a reunion round.

I think the White-Luck Warrior will die defending Esmenet.

Sorweel lives.

Kelmomas dies.

Meppa dies.

I could go either way with Serwa and Moenghus the Younger. Serwa is due to suffer a fate worse than death as Ishterebinth's Womb, regardless... I want Moenghus to live though. Reminds me of his Da  :'(.

Mimara lives.

Iyokus dies by Achamian's hand... for Xinemus, you know.

Fanayal dies.
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Kellais

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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2013, 04:55:16 pm »
Hmm...ok, some (probably) idiotic ramblings (it's too long since i read all the books)

I really want Kellhus to die...i hate this character since the TWP. Unfortunately, i don't think i will get what i want. Somehow i think Kellhus might be the next No God.

Or maybe that's Kelmomas (he creeps me out).

I really hope Serwa will live...i like her  ;D I also want to see some more action out of Kellhus' two oldest sons (Moenghus and Kayutas). So i hope they live although i think it is very likely that at least one of them dies.

Mimara and her JE will be needed so i think she'll live.

Btw (as i said, the reading of the books is some time ago, so please be gentle ;) ), do we know who the WLW is? I think not. I always thought it'd be ironic if Sorweel is the WLW. Maybe he even kills Kellhus (or at least it seems that way).

And what i have read so far, i do not think Akka end Esmi will get a reunion happy end kind of thing  ;D
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2013, 07:39:39 pm »
Btw (as i said, the reading of the books is some time ago, so please be gentle ;) ), do we know who the WLW is? I think not. I always thought it'd be ironic if Sorweel is the WLW. Maybe he even kills Kellhus (or at least it seems that way).

My personal opinion of the WLW's identity is Cnaiur.  Like you, it's been a long time since I read TJE, but I think I remember something about the vessel having Scylvendi blood, and I guess my brain latched onto the idea that it must be him.  I like to imagine Yatwer holding a meeting in the Outside, asking for volunteer souls to go back to be the WLW and kill Kellhus.  Cnaiur jumps up with his hand raised "Ooh, ooh, me, me!  I'll do it!"  Ha!

But, seriously, I think it's Cnaiur.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2013, 08:28:40 pm »
That's interesting. I never even thought about the question of who the WLW (the idea that it might be a past character hadn't occurred to me). He does have long black hair, but it also described that as "being odd for a Ketyai", implying that he was, in fact, a Ketyai himself. I may have read it wrong though.

@Madness

I never heard of the idea that the WLW might die saving Esmi. How does that work?

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 12:13:24 am »
@Madness

I never heard of the idea that the WLW might die saving Esmi. How does that work?
Because fate is a whore, and we all know how jealous women can get over men. Cat fight between the Whore and Yatwer  ;)

Live:


Achamian - the Whore just loves to fuck him. If he died, who would she play with?

Mimara - TJE seems important, she'll stick around. Oh, and the Whore(fate) loves an orgy.

Serwa - The Nonman will be enraptured by her

Kelmomas - Too weird and smart to die. I really hope he accidentally kills Esmenet and then freaks and and starts some insane kill rampage.

Die:

Esmenet - I just don't like her. Really just wishful thinking. Please die.

Proyas - Being primed to take over for Kellhus, then he does something stupid/heroic in a battle and dies (all part of the plan)


Fanayal - Psatma kills him dead

Moenghus - Unlike his hot "sister", the Nonmen think he's a jackass and chop his head off. Maybe some cool combat scene.




Kellhus/Sorweel - I think Sorweel will die, pretty much just thrown under the bus by Yatwer to kill Kellhus. I can't see Kellhus actually dying for real, at the very least his story arc will not be closed even if his physical body is destroyed.

One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 03:56:46 am »
My personal opinion of the WLW's identity is Cnaiur.  Like you, it's been a long time since I read TJE, but I think I remember something about the vessel having Scylvendi blood, and I guess my brain latched onto the idea that it must be him.  I like to imagine Yatwer holding a meeting in the Outside, asking for volunteer souls to go back to be the WLW and kill Kellhus.  Cnaiur jumps up with his hand raised "Ooh, ooh, me, me!  I'll do it!"  Ha!

But, seriously, I think it's Cnaiur.

The Warrior was young before he gained his 'attributes' from the Mother-Supreme.

@Madness

I never heard of the idea that the WLW might die saving Esmi. How does that work?

I trust the White-Luck visions as far as I trust them.

Basically, no one will kill Esmenet until the Warrior is destined to. If something fucks that up (some Worldly power taking on the White-Luck), then Esmenet doesn't die.
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 01:49:36 pm »
My personal opinion of the WLW's identity is Cnaiur.  Like you, it's been a long time since I read TJE, but I think I remember something about the vessel having Scylvendi blood, and I guess my brain latched onto the idea that it must be him.  I like to imagine Yatwer holding a meeting in the Outside, asking for volunteer souls to go back to be the WLW and kill Kellhus.  Cnaiur jumps up with his hand raised "Ooh, ooh, me, me!  I'll do it!"  Ha!

But, seriously, I think it's Cnaiur.

The Warrior was young before he gained his 'attributes' from the Mother-Supreme.

Yes, the vessel's body was young.  Psatma/Yatwer shunted another, older soul into it, giving the youth calloused hands, neck-breaking strength, etc.  My postulation was that the older soul is Cnaiur.  The vessel did have Scylvendi blood, however diluted, and to me that was an odd detail to put in, describing the vessel's heritage like that.  Seemed to me it was to give a Scylvendi soul an anchor of sorts to inhabit in a new body.  Additionally, with Yatwer going to war, she may have chosen one of her brother's most violent adherents to inhabit the vessel, one that knew Kellhus in life, so would be better equipped to defeat him.  Cnaiur (or his soul, rather) fits the bill imho.
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 02:44:35 pm »
I read that differently but I'm not settled in my interpretation neither.

Psatma becomes young and fertile, which would seem that it is her attributes being traded onto the young man, while she inherits his youth...
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 05:04:59 am »
Psatma becomes young and fertile, which would seem that it is her attributes being traded onto the young man, while she inherits his youth...

That was my exact interpretation as well. Psatma gave her "oldness" to the younger WLW, and gained his youth in return.

I don't remember the bit about the WLW being a diluted Scylvendi though. That is interesting, and a weird little thing to throw in there for no reason (other than perhaps to make us do exactly what we're doing right now).

So the body of the WLW was just a vessel then? I was unclear on that before. Like it was just some random younger person they used and then put the soul inside of it? If I'm understanding this correctly then the body being young wouldn't necessarily conflict with the idea of the soul being Cnaiur's. What would it matter? In that case the Scylvendi lineage thing, and the reference to long black hair, could definitely be little off-hand hints that it's Cnaiur (in reality they'd just be coincidental, but it would be Bakker giving the audience a hint in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge kind of way). Unless, perhaps, the vessel in question would actually require some amount of Scylvendi blood in order for it to "accept" Cnaiur's soul?

Kellais

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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 10:56:24 am »
Do we have any hints that it is THE WLW or that it is perhaps just A WLW?

I mean could there be more than one WLW in play? Sure we have the stuff with Psatma etc. but maybe that is just one of Yatwer's arrows against the Demon? I still think that Sorweel could be a WLW ... i mean with all the Yatwer stuff going on with him and him being in the proximity of Kellhus, the Demon.
Maybe the other WLW (i think it'd be cool if it were Cnaiur) is there to fill another role...for example to destroy the vessel that can carry Demon offspring (aka Esmi).

On the other hand if this one WLW in the south indeed is Cnaiur reborn, i think that Scott will pit him against Kellhus...because lets face it, that is THE confrontation of the first trilogy.

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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 02:58:38 pm »
I think its possible that there might be some kind of multi-WLW thing going on, and the text/POV of ignorant characters is pointing us down the path of one WLW.

lol I figure we'll just conceive of every possible twist, so then when something happens unexpected we can all say "yeah saw that coming".
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2013, 05:08:27 pm »
I think I'm about to do a 180....  Yep, there I go.  While I like the idea that the WLW is, at least in part, Cnaiur or holds a remnant of Cnaiur's soul, when I think about the greater narrative, I'm beginning to doubt my own recipe.  While I loved the character, would we really see Cnaiur be the end of both Moenghus (the Elder) and his son Kellhus (if that's how it were to go)?  I get that the overall narrative is cyclical, but wouldn't that be too... trite?  I believe there are enough characters (known and unknown at this time) without having to resort to a previous one, however awesome he was.

I hadn't considered Psatma lending her 'experience/age' to the WLW in exchange for some of his youth.  It makes sense in a way that seems obvious once pointed out, but it just didn't occur to me before.  Go figure.  One of the many reasons I can't stop coming back to this forum is the constant and sometimes revelatory insights all you good people regularly share with one another.  I think I've revised my own story biases about a hundred times already, and expect to do so a hundred more before the end of it (and probably many times thereafter, as well).  Currently, I don't know what to believe anymore, which equals awesome in my book.  And frustrating.  Oh, and awesome.
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2013, 06:28:46 pm »
Currently, I don't know what to believe anymore,

This is exactly why I'm here. I abandoned "knowing" anything and now just jump from idea to idea. TSA is as complex as you want to make it, and it might be that once its over there is little mystery to be had, but for now, I'll keep coming back for the crackpot theories of insane speculations.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2013, 03:44:09 am »
Quote
Esmi -- I personally think the WLW "predictions" are mostly true, so I think she'll be done for by the end of TUC. I'm not really sure where else her character has to go beyond that anyway.

Esmi will die, but her particular Limbo will be sitting in a brothel, pondering what it's like to be a sex worker for the rest of the series.

(Okay, I'll try and come up with serious answers later. Just couldn't resist. Plus I gotta live up to my custom title yo!)
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