The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: lastborn on December 20, 2016, 06:19:33 am
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We know that Kellhus spared Meppa's life at the end of TGO. However, the reason for this is not evident as yet, but we can conjecture that it has something to do with the powers and characteristics of the Psûkhe.
The things we already know about sorcery in general are:
1. Sorcerers imitate the Voice of God.
2. The reason that sorcerers (Gnostic/Anagogic) have a visible (to certain people) Mark is because their imperfect imitation of the Voice of God bruises the onta.
3. Cishaurim do not possess a Mark as their way of accessing sorcery imitates the Voice of God in a much more precise way due to their blinding themselves and seeing through holes.
4. The Gnosis is superior to the Anagogis as it directly creates changes in the World while the Anagogis has to use abstractions to describe the world.
5. The Anagogis is in turn superior to the Psûkhe (in direct strength) as the Psûkari are blinded to the majority of the world and so cannot use detailed magics.
Basically - the Gnosis is analogous to speaking technical language to the World, directly shedding Meaning. The Anagogis is analogous to speaking to the World in poetic language - some Meaning is lost. And the Psûkhe is equivalent to speaking to the World in simple language, with lesser control over Meaning, but imitating the Voice of God perfectly.
The reason that Moënghus Elder was unable to muster much sorcerous power was due to the Dûnyain's atrophied emotions - he was never able to muster the passion required to even be a Secondary, much less a Primary. Kellhus knows this, and would be preparing contingencies. He is already the greatest Gnostic and Daimotic (and presumably Anagogic) sorcerer in history due to his extreme intellect and the Thousandfold Thought.
However, to truly speak in the Voice of God, he needs the Psûkhe. We all know from Achamian and Xinemus's captivity with the Scarlet Spires that Cants of Compulsion force the one Compelled to feel exactly as they are compelled to. Therefore, I predict that Kellhus will use Meppa's Waters to Speak in the Voice of God with precise meaning, rewriting reality itself - possibly disenchanting the world/sealing the Outside/messing with the Gods themselves.
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We know that Kellhus spared Meppa's life at the end of TGO. However, the reason for this is not evident as yet, but we can conjecture that it has something to do with the powers and characteristics of the Psûkhe.
The things we already know about sorcery in general are:
1. Sorcerers imitate the Voice of God.
2. The reason that sorcerers (Gnostic/Anagogic) have a visible (to certain people) Mark is because their imperfect imitation of the Voice of God bruises the onta.
3. Cishaurim do not possess a Mark as their way of accessing sorcery imitates the Voice of God in a much more precise way due to their blinding themselves and seeing through holes.
4. The Gnosis is superior to the Anagogis as it directly creates changes in the World while the Anagogis has to use abstractions to describe the world.
5. The Anagogis is in turn superior to the Psûkhe (in direct strength) as the Psûkari are blinded to the majority of the world and so cannot use detailed magics.
Basically - the Gnosis is analogous to speaking technical language to the World, directly shedding Meaning. The Anagogis is analogous to speaking to the World in poetic language - some Meaning is lost. And the Psûkhe is equivalent to speaking to the World in simple language, with lesser control over Meaning, but imitating the Voice of God perfectly.
The reason that Moënghus Elder was unable to muster much sorcerous power was due to the Dûnyain's atrophied emotions - he was never able to muster the passion required to even be a Secondary, much less a Primary. Kellhus knows this, and would be preparing contingencies. He is already the greatest Gnostic and Daimotic (and presumably Anagogic) sorcerer in history due to his extreme intellect and the Thousandfold Thought.
However, to truly speak in the Voice of God, he needs the Psûkhe. We all know from Achamian and Xinemus's captivity with the Scarlet Spires that Cants of Compulsion force the one Compelled to feel exactly as they are compelled to. Therefore, I predict that Kellhus will use Meppa's Waters to Speak in the Voice of God with precise meaning, rewriting reality itself - possibly disenchanting the world/sealing the Outside/messing with the Gods themselves.
:slow clap: I like it. I like it a lot.
ETA: I would add that Kellhus was VERY interested in Malowebi's charm-based magic also. I can see that being used by him going forward. Maybe as a way to protect the Ordeal from sorcerers as they near Golgoterreth? Just musing. I like your thoughts and can see something like that happening.
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Thank you.
I had a follow-up question: what would happen if some sorcerer Compelled a Dûnyain to feel emotions?
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Thank you.
I had a follow-up question: what would happen if some sorcerer Compelled a Dûnyain to feel emotions?
Well didn't the Torturer try and Compel Serwa to no avail?
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Thank you.
I had a follow-up question: what would happen if some sorcerer Compelled a Dûnyain to feel emotions?
Well, Kellhus does show some emotions from time to time. What he doesn't do is allow that to control him. I don't really think that Kellhus awash in emotion would really compel him, he is too far along the Thousandfold Thought to be budged by almost anything (including himself).
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Thank you.
I had a follow-up question: what would happen if some sorcerer Compelled a Dûnyain to feel emotions?
Well, Kellhus does show some emotions from time to time. What he doesn't do is allow that to control him. I don't really think that Kellhus awash in emotion would really compel him, he is too far along the Thousandfold Thought to be budged by almost anything (including himself).
See now I think Kellhus's emotions, beginning in the Circumfix is what made him more, what made the TT his. Moe cared nothing of damnation, nothing. Just the destruction of the Consult. Kellhus knows his proclamations that Sorcerers are not damned is bullshit. He knows everyone, even Serwe, is damned. And those emotions is what has compelled him to end damnation. So, yes, a Dûnyain can be compelled by emotions. Count on a bit of this being revealed to Akka when he kneels.
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Though, I agree with H. Now, that he is on a path to wherever the TT leads, he will not let emotions get him sidetracked. But, again, I do believe emotions is what set him on his course.
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Yeah I can't imagine the purpose of keeping Meppa alive for any reason other than figuring out the inner workings of the Psuke.
Maybe that's too direct and there is some other path, but I certainly don't see it.
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Yeah I can't imagine the purpose of keeping Meppa alive for any reason other than figuring out the inner workings of the Psuke.
Maybe that's too direct and there is some other path, but I certainly don't see it.
Well, Kellhus does make some statement like, "Such Power", when facing off Meppa. I agree he definitely sees some value to the Psûkhe. Or, it's just the Voice telling him what to do.....
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Though, I agree with H. Now, that he is on a path to wherever the TT leads, he will not let emotions get him sidetracked. But, again, I do believe emotions is what set him on his course.
Well, that is where we differ. While I don't doubt that Kellhus has emotions, I don't think that is what set him on a track that lead him to a different Thousandfold Thought than Moënghus imagined. Well, actually scratch that, Moënghus knew that the full Thousandfold Thought was beyond him, that is why he called Kellhus to him in the first place. What he didn't realize was that it would necessitate his death. The lynchpin for me is the Voice. And Kellhus admits (in TGO) that it was his "disorder" that lead him to listen to the Voice. That is what set him apart.
Why? Because one of the major things we learn in the Kellhus-Moënghus TTT confrontation is that papa Moë is wrong in the assuption that the Law of Before and After is inviolate. We know, especially post-TGO that this is false. So, that is why Moënghus could not carry on the Thousandfold Thought. But Kellhus, semi-deranged (mad, if you will, but I wouldn't call it madness) was open at that point on the Circumfix. Open to himself reaching back and that is where the true Thousandfold Thought comes into play. Could we call his state on the Circumfix emotional? Perhaps, but that isn't the connotation I would ascribe to it, but it could fit.
Yeah I can't imagine the purpose of keeping Meppa alive for any reason other than figuring out the inner workings of the Psuke.
Maybe that's too direct and there is some other path, but I certainly don't see it.
Well, Kellhus does make some statement like, "Such Power", when facing off Meppa. I agree he definitely sees some value to the Psûkhe. Or, it's just the Voice telling him what to do.....
Recall how many times The Thousandfold Thought has basically dictated the keeping of an "enemy" alive though. Kellhus has had plenty of time and opportunity to kill Akka, Aurang, Fanayal, Sorweel, and so on. We keep asking why, which is proof positive (to me, now) that the Voice speaks from the future Kellhus. Each has a part to play, which makes no sense now, but will later.
Think of it as Kellhus keeping Akka alive. He allows it, Akka writes the books (why this is needed I don't know, but perhaps to draw Mimara to him?) and so Mimara goes to him, she gets pregnant and so has the Judging Eye which is needed (for what, maybe to look at Kellhus? Maybe to look at the No-God?). It's all connected, but not in a causal way that we see, because the Thousandfold Thought is beyond Before and After now, because it's author (future Kellhus) is directing it from beyond the Now.
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I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.
I think this is a game of Benjukala basically and the people in the Earwa are the board. They have no free will (no moves) the only thing they can do is change the parts of the game and the rules. Mandate and Dunyain an attempt at adding parts, Kellhus rewriting society rules. Seswatha trying to communicate across games maybe? With dreams?
I'm using Abenjukala as the context.
1. The game enacts the form of creation. To be is to be for the Game
2. The parts of the game are the whole of the game, given the rules that compel them. The parts and the rules comprise the elements of the game( this part is important, elements are the rules and parts)
3. There are no moves (acts) in the Game, only the changing permutations of the elements. (this means there is no free will, no moves. You can only change the elements, which are the rules and the players)
4...
5. To lose is to cease to exist for the Game, to be as dead. Since the Game is always the same Game, rebirth belongs to the survivor. The dead return as strangers.
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I expect Meppa is coming North with Kellhus and whoever he takes with him (Esmenet, Kelmomas, etc), for the tactical advantage of having a sorcerer without a mark. Given the timing of the Consult disappearing lining up roughly with the birth of Fanimry, maybe there's some connection there which would make the last Cishaurim indispensable for the Ordeal.
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I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.
Indeed, this is essentially what I think is happening. Even Kellhus' enemies have a "part to play" such that it isn't possible (or should I say adventageous?) for him to eliminate them just yet. Like Akka's role, there are things that need to be done that specifically cannot be done by Kellhus, by virtue of literally needing to be done by someone else.
While everyone else is a piece on the board, Kellhus is a piece and the hand moving them.
I expect Meppa is coming North with Kellhus and whoever he takes with him (Esmenet, Kelmomas, etc), for the tactical advantage of having a sorcerer without a mark. Given the timing of the Consult disappearing lining up roughly with the birth of Fanimry, maybe there's some connection there which would make the last Cishaurim indispensable for the Ordeal.
Now that you mention it, I had kind of thought the same thing. However, that doesn't really make much sense, in that would Meppa ever submit to Kellhus? Would Meppa under a permanent Cant of Compulsion really be that strong in the Water? In fact, would the Pshuke even work at all, needing raw passion? Or maybe it wouldn't matter?
I actually think maybe Kellhus leaves Meppa to pick up the pieces of the Fanim army. Why? I don't know though.
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I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.
Indeed, this is essentially what I think is happening. Even Kellhus' enemies have a "part to play" such that it isn't possible (or should I say adventageous?) for him to eliminate them just yet. Like Akka's role, there are things that need to be done that specifically cannot be done by Kellhus, by virtue of literally needing to be done by someone else.
While everyone else is a piece on the board, Kellhus is a piece and the hand moving them.
Talk about an interesting game of Benjuka...
The hints and rules have been there since the beginning.
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Question. What everyone's thoughts on if Kellhus sees Akka as an enemy that plays a part, or an ally?
For me, that line about Akka kneeling resonates throughout the entire series for me. Its key. Its something Kellhus has seen through the PT or what the Voice has told him. Everyone knows my thought on "why" Akka will kneel, but he will kneel. Will it be my pet theory or something else? Like maybe Mimara gazes upon him and he is HOLY?
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I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.
Indeed, this is essentially what I think is happening. Even Kellhus' enemies have a "part to play" such that it isn't possible (or should I say adventageous?) for him to eliminate them just yet. Like Akka's role, there are things that need to be done that specifically cannot be done by Kellhus, by virtue of literally needing to be done by someone else.
While everyone else is a piece on the board, Kellhus is a piece and the hand moving them..
I don't think Kellhus is the mover, I think he realizes he isn't and that's why he knows how insignificant he really is, he's like a playing piece that has leveled all the way up but still doesn't make his own moves. The whole first triology is basically Moe apprehending the TTT, then making his move to bring Kellhus to the plate. Who follows a path which has ostensibly been laid out for him by Moe, but is actually him just following the "TTT" or "destiny". This is continued in the AE. The whole time from leaving Ishual he has been following the TTT, he was just ignorant of that fact for the majority of his inner monologue.
He thinks the steppe is trackless, but they're all actually on rails like train heading to one outcome that has already happened.
I'll be doing a full re-read soonish before TUC, so will be on the look out for things that confirm or deny(wont remember the deny ones though :P :) this theory.
Also re-read the siege of Shimeh again, still thinking moe is running things behind the scenes, for another day though...
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I don't think Kellhus is the mover, I think he realizes he isn't and that's why he knows how insignificant he really is, he's like a playing piece that has leveled all the way up but still doesn't make his own moves. The whole first triology is basically Moe apprehending the TTT, then making his move to bring Kellhus to the plate. Who follows a path which has ostensibly been laid out for him by Moe, but is actually him just following the "TTT" or "destiny". This is continued in the AE. The whole time from leaving Ishual he has been following the TTT, he was just ignorant of that fact for the majority of his inner monologue.
Well, I should have specified, the now Kellhus is a piece and future Kellhus is the mover. But they are both him. So, Kellhus is a pawn and the mover, just in a way that is both simultaneous and yet not.
He thinks the steppe is trackless, but they're all actually on rails like train heading to one outcome that has already happened.
Well, see here is where I think our thinking really diverges. Pre-TGO this seemed likely. Post-TGO however, knowing how Yatwer could not anticipate Kellhus, puts me more toward thinking that while the rails keep everyone on track, Kellhus is off those rails. That isn't to say that he doesn't follow a path, but that path is not the rails we see, they are the path that the Voice bids him to forge.
I'll be doing a full re-read soonish before TUC, so will be on the look out for things that confirm or deny(wont remember the deny ones though :P) this theory.
Don't forget to wash it down with a tall glass of confirmation bias, it's the order of the day now, :P
Also re-read the siege of Shimeh again, still thinking moe is running things behind the scenes, for another day though...
I still think there is more to unpack in the Kellhus-Moe confrontation, but it's been years and I still have nothing...
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Are don't think the distinction between friend and enemy is relevant to kellhus. There is the consult, himself, and everything else. He uses everything to secure the outcome against the consult. No friends or enemies, just pieces to move around the benjuka plate.
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Are don't think the distinction between friend and enemy is relevant to kellhus. There is the consult, himself, and everything else. He uses everything to secure the outcome against the consult. No friends or enemies, just pieces to move around the benjuka plate.
Good point. In fact, I don't even think the Consult is separate. If Kellhus really wanted to, he could take Golgotterath himself and avert the No-God (if the No-God is really even imminent). But somehow they have a role to play too. I think this is why Aurang seems so bumbling to us. Everything he does is precedent, even what seems unprecedented because Kellhus (a la, The Thousandfold Thought) has their actions already accounted for.
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Are don't think the distinction between friend and enemy is relevant to kellhus. There is the consult, himself, and everything else. He uses everything to secure the outcome against the consult. No friends or enemies, just pieces to move around the benjuka plate.
Good point. In fact, I don't even think the Consult is separate. If Kellhus really wanted to, he could take Golgotterath himself and avert the No-God (if the No-God is really even imminent). But somehow they have a role to play too. I think this is why Aurang seems so bumbling to us. Everything he does is precedent, even what seems unprecedented because Kellhus (a la, The Thousandfold Thought) has their actions already accounted for.
How is the Consult not relevant to the point? Destroying them is what spurred the TT.... I know maybe I am a little too much on wether Kellhus emotions matter (though I have been convinced that TGO doesn't make decisions based on emotion, emotion spurred him to be more, to make the TT his, I won't back down from that.), some of you guys take it too far the opposite way. Where is there any textual evidence Kellhus wants to join the Consult? In fact, the opposite is true, the Consult must be exterminated for Kelhus to transcend, whatever that might be (half ape, half monk God of Earwa, I guess). He might make tools of the Consult and their mechanisms, he won't suffer their presence. I mean, what are we reading about here? If he wanted to join them he would make a few jumps and make some new friends. For whatever reason, the text seems to indicate the Consult wants nothing to do with him, prophecy or whatever I guess.
To answer my question, I believe Akka is an ally in Kellhus's own view of what a ally is. He let him live because he needed him, that much is for sure. Even in conquering Earwa, he did his best to make allies and not enemies. I'd say their is a distinct separation of the two in his mind. He made Malowebi choose, did he not? He offered to be allies, and look what "no" got Zeum. A demon-headed Malowebi coming to exterminate their line. So, I see that Kellhus sees them to be more than just tools. Life goes on after the Great Ordeal, after all. And, it is Holy!
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How is the Consult not relevant to the point? Destroying them is what spurred the TT.... I know maybe I am a little too much on wether Kellhus emotions matter (though I have been convinced that TGO doesn't make decisions based on emotion, emotion spurred him to be more, to make the TT his, I won't back down from that.), some of you guys take it too far the opposite way. Where is there any textual evidence Kellhus wants to join the Consult? In fact, the opposite is true, the Consult must be exterminated for Kelhus to transcend, whatever that might be (half ape, half monk God of Earwa, I guess). He might make tools of the Consult and their mechanisms, he won't suffer their presence. I mean, what are we reading about here? If he wanted to join them he would make a few jumps and make some new friends. For whatever reason, the text seems to indicate the Consult wants nothing to do with him, prophecy or whatever I guess.
Oh, indeed, it wasn't my intention to imply that Kellhus has any ideal to join the Consult, or even suffer their continued existence after they do whatever it is Kellhus needs them to do. In other words, what I was trying to say is that there is little distinction between enemies and tools for Kellhus. Indeed, the Consult is certainly an enemy and yet at the same time, the fact that Kellhus hasn't simply killed them all, or tossed the Ark back into the Void, speaks to them still having some kind of role.
To bring this back full circle, I don't think Meppa somehow ends up not being Kellhus' mortal enemy. In fact, I think he is still alive to simply be that again. Why does Kellhus need that? I don't know, but it may have to do with him needing to strive, in a sense?
To answer my question, I believe Akka is an ally in Kellhus's own view of what a ally is. He let him live because he needed him, that much is for sure. Even in conquering Earwa, he did his best to make allies and not enemies. I'd say their is a distinct separation of the two in his mind. He made Malowebi choose, did he not? He offered to be allies, and look what "no" got Zeum. A demon-headed Malowebi coming to exterminate their line. So, I see that Kellhus sees them to be more than just tools. Life goes on after the Great Ordeal, after all. And, it is Holy!
Sure, in the abstract there is definitely a distinction between ally and enemy. But in the practical Kellhus-ian way, they are both things to be used. Indeed, the end for each will be different, allies rewarded or spared, enemies punished or killed, but the point is that they are all things to be used to achieve ends.
Thinking about how you phrased that though make me think of Kellhus as a "Bellicose God," that is "one who favours those who strive against him over sycophants and worshipers." Perhaps it really is about Kellhus achieving Becoming (More), and that something that required things to be striven against?
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Not to go off on a tangent, but you made me think of something. What was the difference between Saubon and Proyas? Both loyal generals of the Unification Wars, both followed him to the end, whatever that might be. Was Proyas rewarded and giving control of the Ordeal because he questioned Kellhus? Saubon did not. Kelllhus rewards the thinker no matter where his thoughts lead him? Though, Kellhus wanted Proyas to see that he was a lie and all that, we don't know exactly what he asked of Saubon. Interesting to think on.
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Not to go off on a tangent, but you made me think of something. What was the difference between Saubon and Proyas? Both loyal generals of the Unification Wars, both followed him to the end, whatever that might be. Was Proyas rewarded and giving control of the Ordeal because he questioned Kellhus? Saubon did not. Kelllhus rewards the thinker no matter where his thoughts lead him? Though, Kellhus wanted Proyas to see that he was a lie and all that, we don't know exactly what he asked of Saubon. Interesting to think on.
That is a good point. Saubon seems like a pretty straight forward sycophant, in the sense that his support for Kellhus was always to tie himself to greater personal power. I think that is a pretty key difference between him and Proyas and probably goes a long way to explain why they end up in very different positions at the end of TGO.
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My simple thoughts:
Kellhus is heaping emotional trauma onto Meppa, making his water even more powerful?
And a new theory about Akka kneeling to Kellhus. Akka will become the No-God and kellhus the savior will debate whether the world should end. Akka will argue that the world and the outside needs to be wiped clean and Kellhus will offer his idea for how damnation should work. Oh yeah and in the background a giant war.
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My simple thoughts:
Kellhus is heaping emotional trauma onto Meppa, making his water even more powerful?
That's actually quite interesting. Because, we learn that what caused his Water to be so strong was the murder of his family. Great spot. I'm gonna re-read and see if Kelhhus's "such power" line comes after Meppa's confession or before.
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I still think Meppa gets left with the remnants of the Fanim forces. Trying to drag him around would be a huge liability, even if he is Collared.
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My best (and incredibly far-fetched) guess for Meppa is that Kellhus will use him to destroy the nascent No-God. Going back to the Ciphrang's POV from TTT, their description of the Cish's Water was very similar to the thread that connected humans' souls to the Outside. So I'm thinking that channeling enough Water into the No-God might cause a "soul juice" overload.
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Going back to the Ciphrang's POV from TTT, their description of the Cish's Water was very similar to the thread that connected humans' souls to the Outside.
It's probably already been discussed in another thread, but... Quote for this? I'm intrigued.
I remember the passage in TTT in which the power of the Water depends on the power of one's emotions. The Dunyain's emotions being so stumped because of their breeding, the last Cishaurim is basically an antithesis of Kellhus. It's not unlikely that emotional raw power is necessary in the TTT Scheme.
Also another theory: How about Kellhus seeing a picture, while he was hanging from the tree. A bit as if he were looking at some sort of vision-like Da Vinci's Last Supper, representing all the 'required' protagonists for the final showdown. Basically him seeing the last "leaf" (or one of the last leaves anyway) of the tree of possibilities offered by TTT.
This would mean he is setting the gears in motion (guiding reality) to ensure all the protagonists are at the right place for the final showdown. Do we know if Kellhus can see the final stage(s) of TTT and what the final result is to be?
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It's when zioz the demon meets a cish for the first time, in Thousand fold Thought, soemthing like "the manling made a panicked noise and released a thread of light which zioz seized and yanked his soul out"
He also comments that the Cish see as he does but without the pain.
Sorry not got the book at hand, plus TTT fell apart as well last week during my re-read :(
EDIT googled Zioz manling and siezed and got it
"The manling made noise in terror, then unleashed his own light: a thread of raw energy. With one hand, Zioz grasped the thread, curious. When he pulled, the soul was yanked from the manling. The light vanished. The meat slapped the floor."
Full passage
"The Ciphrang fell to the floor and huddled, cringed from all things exterior, all things surface. It waited, longed for the pitching deeps. Soon one of them came. The manling had no eyes, and yet saw... saw as it did, though without the pain. But the salt of his fear tasted no different.
It rose and revealed its Form. Zioz, his face as bright as the sun.
The manling made noise in terror, then unleashed his own light: a thread of raw energy. With one hand, Zioz grasped the thread, curious. When he pulled, the soul was yanked from the manling. The light vanished. The meat slapped the floor.
Weak...
There are others, the Voice said. Far,far stronger."
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Thank you for providing the quote.
Since the power of the Water comes from raw emotion and we know from TGO that Ciphrang feast on emotions, this is not too surprising :) . It's still an interesting passage I'd forgotten about though.
Edit: Interesting passage about magical metaphysical implications, I mean.