The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Dora Vee on January 07, 2018, 01:27:54 am
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IIRC only two characters were shown to be "Dragged off to Hell": Proyas and Saubon. I often wondered what the significance of that was. The Judging Eye was never used on either of them and I'm pretty sure they were the only two with the POVs of being "Dragged".
To me, I play the At Best/At worst game.
At best: CIPHRANG BABY! Ascendant in some way. Reborn/Reincarnated in some way.
At worst: You'll never see either one of them again. They might be mentioned every once in awhile (Like Xinemus or Serwe), but they are dead and done. :(
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I wish I had something to contribute here, but I'm simply clueless on the whole Outside thing, just not enough information for me to conclude anything. Could be the apparent arbitrariness is a criticism of the concept of heaven/hell from bakker, that no "system" of salvation/damnation determination could ever be objective, so fuck it, abandon any semblance of a scheme to shine light on the "error" for such a "divine" approach on the subject. That's the best I got, Bakker is purposely making it a random jumble of shit ( which of course just confuses the shit out of us readers trying to make sense of it all ). You could be on to something - when I read it, I had the feeling "something" was "taking" them, but could be they were in process of becoming Ciphrang ( which I would like if it was - would be cool to see Ciphrang Proyas kick some ass, and that Kellhus' "preparation" of Proyas was more than lead the army to Golgotterath ).
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There's also at least two others, a sorcerer and some Tydonni chieftain, which are described as going to hell. I don't think any of them are going to become Ciphrang, that requires a far greater predatory nature.
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As a POV or just described?
As for ciphrang requirements, if it requires a far greater predatory nature, then I think Saubon, at least, would qualify.
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Oh, no not POV. I have the feeling that a Ciphrang to be wouldn't e.g. feel fear at being dragged to hell like Saubon seems to do, but I could be wrong.
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Well, if you don't know you're going to be ciphrang, that could still be scary. Look at Kosotor. He still feared damnation.
And really, the Consult would qualify as ciphrang.
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Bakker's go to is to reveal character's confusion as opposed to revealing what is really going on, so it could well be someone transitioning to Ciphrang could be wrought with terror and confusion.
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Well, if you don't know you're going to be ciphrang, that could still be scary. Look at Kosotor. He still feared damnation.
And really, the Consult would qualify as ciphrang.
But remember what the Inverse Fire showed them, all of them burning. I think to become a Ciphrang you'd have to be maybe less self-aware, e.g. like Cnaiur embrace madness.
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I think Kosotor was pretty self-aware and really, how accurate IS the Inverse Fire? It's a recruitment tool. The Consult would say anything to get recruits.
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I think Kosotor was pretty self-aware and really, how accurate IS the Inverse Fire? It's a recruitment tool. The Consult would say anything to get recruits.
Well, I don't know. Maybe people like Kosoter are more enslaved to to their ill intent, more animalistic/primal. I do think the Fire burns true, as Kellhus also said.
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But, don't Ciphrang burn in their own right? I mean, Aurang was pretty damned animalistic...
Serwa was described as Ciphrang by the Judging Eye and she had "burns upon burns".
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I think Kosotor was pretty self-aware and really, how accurate IS the Inverse Fire? It's a recruitment tool. The Consult would say anything to get recruits.
Well, there really isn't much of a way to know how accurate the Inverse Fire is/was.
I don't really favor the idea that it is a lie though. In fact, I'm apt to "assume" it is very much the truth. In fact, truer than most things we are presented in the series. I don't really think that of all the things the Consult are guilty of, lying is chief among them...
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I think Kosotor was pretty self-aware and really, how accurate IS the Inverse Fire? It's a recruitment tool. The Consult would say anything to get recruits.
Well, there really isn't much of a way to know how accurate the Inverse Fire is/was.
I don't really favor the idea that it is a lie though. In fact, I'm apt to "assume" it is very much the truth. In fact, truer than most things we are presented in the series. I don't really think that of all the things the Consult are guilty of, lying is chief among them...
Well, they are quite adept at spying and deception ;) ... but I agree, if the IR is a sham, just too much comes undone with the story degenerating into a Faulkner tale ( which would be ok if the story was presented differently ). Also, something about the goad is compelling them to buy into it. Simply fooling them with tv would weaken the frame of this thing considerably.
But, who knows, Bakker could fashion himself as Ajokli ( much the same way Rice does with Lestat ), so the Arc could be THE preternatural "trick". But I think that's a stretch, don't buy it, myself.
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But another common theme is things being both true and false.
If the IF is a tool of Ajokli (or [insert god entity here]), and if gods can vie for whichever soul, then the IF might show what happens to any soul that enters into Ajokli's domain.
I'm not sure an IF that shows the fate of each individual in their particular objective afterlife makes much sense. There's many gods, many fates, and we only here of one: eternal torment and pain (other than Kellhus but we all know he's special. Him breaking the rules is expected. Besides, he still appears to bein the same burning-torment-world).
Where are all the happy afterlives? Not that Bakker did a great job of giving us enough information to puzzle things out, I would still expect someone to not be damned.
Simultaneously too little and too much information to make a strong argument for much of anything :( .
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I'm not sure that "how true is the Inverse Fire?" is of consequence. It might metaphysically not be relevant to determine any soul's afterlife in the sense that temporal (and possibly objective) existence in Earwa is completely different from atemporal (and possibly subjective) one in the Outside. So a still living soul looking in the Inverse Fire sees torment that isn't going to be torment from the point of view of that same soul in the Outside. It's about incomprehensibility, or the complete inability to relate to something you have no point of reference to comprehend at the time. From what I understand, Bakker is big on the latter concept.
The question about the Inverse Fire is how convincing is it. And it seems to be very convincing.
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I'd liken the IF as something of a mirror. What it shows you is true, but it doesn't preclude that what it shows you is immutable. The thing about the Consult is that they, rather than change themselves, demand the world change.
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I'd liken the IF as something of a mirror. What it shows you is true, but it doesn't preclude that what it shows you is immutable. The thing about the Consult is that they, rather than change themselves, demand the world change.
I like this comparison.
Myself, I think more along the lines of trying to comprehend what you don't yet understand (and maybe aren't equipped to understand) and using out of context instruments for that to reign in your terror of the unknown. But the instruments themselves create context (because the instruments are known), which agitates those in fear to act. It's akin to first humans seeing lightning and, for their lack of better tools, creating gods to govern that lightning. But gods are understandable, they're similar to people who created them, so they like stuff and food, and attention, thus demanding worship.
In this same way the Inverse Fire absolves of any atrocity committed on the quest to avoid eternal torment, which is what the Inverse Fire shows.
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In this same way the Inverse Fire absolves of any atrocity committed on the quest to avoid eternal torment, which is what the Inverse Fire shows.
Come to think of it, the only way to corroborate what the Inverse Fire shows is to stage another, differently structured experiment. And here there is Kellhus, who walked the Outside by means of Daimos before looking into the Inverse Fire.
Take what you will from that, as they say.
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It's about incomprehensibility, or the complete inability to relate to something you have no point of reference to comprehend at the time. From what I understand, Bakker is big on the latter concept.
The question about the Inverse Fire is how convincing is it. And it seems to be very convincing.
That's a fair assessment.
The thing about the Consult is that they, rather than change themselves, demand the world change.
I like this comparison.
Me too, that's great.
In this same way the Inverse Fire absolves of any atrocity committed on the quest to avoid eternal torment, which is what the Inverse Fire shows.
Come to think of it, the only way to corroborate what the Inverse Fire shows is to stage another, differently structured experiment. And here there is Kellhus, who walked the Outside be means of Daimos before looking into the Inverse Fire.
Take what you will from that, as they say.
He certainly saw something different in the IF than anyone else, that's for sure.
Hopefully some of the Daimoti survived. They should have been near the back line of attackers, not needing to be particularly close to do their summoning, and therefore at the best vantage for escape.
Maybe they will be able to provide us with another source of information on the nature of the outside.
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I'd liken the IF as something of a mirror. What it shows you is true, but it doesn't preclude that what it shows you is immutable. The thing about the Consult is that they, rather than change themselves, demand the world change.
Honestly, given how that world IS, I can't say I blame them. The problem is that they are quite predatory to say the least.
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Honestly, given how that world IS, I can't say I blame them. The problem is that they are quite predatory to say the least.
Wolves don't really care much about what sheep think.
That's how they see things, for better or (usually) worse. It certainly depends on if you are a wolf or a sheep though...
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I doubt it's just wolves who want changes in the world and really, wolves are awesome, noble animals. Consult does not qualify. Maybe predatory wasn't the right word.
Animal predators are not actually malicious and prey can be dangerous in their own right. Just ask pythons who get kicked to death by cute bunnies and big enough rats.
Anyway, I guess being a dragon isn't an option? It didn't seem to work out for Proyas. :(
No one I know of wants to be a sheep. And most people on Earwa don't either.
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I doubt it's just wolves who want changes in the world and really, wolves are awesome, noble animals. Consult does not qualify. Maybe predatory wasn't the right word.
Animal predators are not actually malicious and prey can be dangerous in their own right. Just ask pythons who get kicked to death by cute bunnies and big enough rats.
Anyway, I guess being a dragon isn't an option? It didn't seem to work out for Proyas. :(
No one I know of wants to be a sheep. And most people on Earwa don't either.
Well, it's predatory in a way. Consider, you can think of a predator eating prey as it's survival comes at the cost of the well-being of the prey.
The Consult's salvation comes as the expense of everyone else's lives.
It's not the best analogy, but I don't think it's too off base...
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I find this to be one of the more interesting conundrums of the read. Are The Consult evil since they didn't pursue saving themselves directly or are they not at fault for the effects of the IR driving them to pursue any solution that they think could work? Seems much easier to change yourself, but something must be blocking that avenue ( the gods don't ever forgive? ). Even if not for moral considerations, the act of self change is massively more efficient ( the shortest path? ) than murdering 75 million people - even with TNG at the helm, that is one long fucking path to take, and the damn thing may have a timer to boot? Still seems implausibly impossible to pull off, could even still be so with nukes. We survived a ( forget the exact term ) mega volcanic eruption 60,000 years ago which was considered virtually impossible to survive, but we did it because we were, well, everywhere.
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Well, the Consult certainly could try to change themselves, but it isn't a sure bet. And there isn't going to be a do-over, so there isn't any real incentive for the Consult to "experiment" with solutions to the soul-problem. Kellhus probably did figure a "way around" the problem, but he also intuited the meta-Gnosis, so while Shae sure was clever, he simply isn't on the same level.
Also, consider that Aurang "changing his ways" is probably impossible, considering the corner he painting himself into with all those Grafts. That does preclude that a Inchoroi was capable of "reforming" itself at all, which might simply be a biological impossibility. They were made specifically to "heap damnation on themselves" so a peaceful Inchoroi would probably be akin to a vegetarian lion.
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All true ... but think of it, there was that skin-spy hanging around Mimara - they could've invited her over for tea and she could've let them go through iterations of salvation ( as the Survivor did ) until they went green before embarking on Apocalypse ... you're probably right, nothing they could do, but worth a try given their gargantuan task at breaking the soul chain - they couldn't have known for sure they were going to fail given they're all dead now save Aurax ... take it all of the Inchoroi are still screaming as I type this ... but you see my point, lighting up an Apocalypse has significant risks in that the world may respond/thwart you ... as indeed we did ... up next to receive "the response" are the rest of The Consult/Dunsult ... good luck to them. While humans have short lives and live "hot", we're resourceful/clever/creative when we need to be.
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... but you see my point, lighting up an Apocalypse has significant risks in that the world may respond/thwart you ... as indeed we did ... up next to receive "the response" are the rest of The Consult/Dunsult ... good luck to them. While humans have short lives and live "hot", we're resourceful/clever/creative when we need to be
Exactly. And is my exact reason for bringing up the population of Eanna and the southern continent on the map. Plus, the fact that Bakker says he will never fill in the rest of the map. I don't think The NG can reduce Earwa(The actual planet as a whole whatever its called, Earwa is just a continent...or country) to 144, 000.
Its why I believe the dream where the Her on Spear doesn't kill the NG and it just putters out. A timer? An agent of the God....aka Mimara? Earwa isn't the planet, and sorcery and the gods certainly exist in Eanna, why not the other continent/s? It truly is the longest path, and one I don't see coming to fruition. As Kellhus was blindsided in TUC, so will the Dunsult in TNG.
By the way, great thread, great conversation.
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As Kellhus was blindsided in TUC, so will the Dunsult in TNG.
Yes, I think I've been thinking about this all wrong - the whole TNG and Consult has been terrifying to read in the books, but from a historical perspective, The Inchoroi have been a disaster unto themselves from the get go. First they crash land ( and it is THE crash of all landings, breaking all their shit ), lose a fight with the non-men even though they sport significant technological superiority, run back to the Ark and hide, sue for peace ( and fuck that up ), get their ass kicked again by the non-men, the remaining team up with some Quya and human sorcerers and wage an impressively evil campaign throughout the North with TNG chilling in the background, finally TNG shows up and gets taken out by the Inchoroi's own weapon, the rest get chased away and hide for 2,000 years, with the only thing to show for it is to lose several battles on their own turf that they should've won sporting a nuke! Maybe come up with some additional defenses beyond the ants go marching on horde of shranc ( appears all they learned from their 2,000 years of spying was the difference between true and false prophesies ). Then Aurang gets kicked off the balcony like he was a kitten, have a single human waltz on into the "golden room", fuck the goad, only to find out other humans ( as prisoners ) took over the whole shebang. Not the impressive campaign after all - the only truly terrifying things have been infinite shranc ( who are blasted by the thousands by common sorcery ), some tougher beasts ( who fail to overrun a depleted/hungry/fucked up human army ) and the womb plague ( for which I concede is some scary shit ). Aside from "the first apocalypse" which did eradicate the entire North ( with the help of other humans, wouldn't have happened otherwise, Aurang/Aurax still masturbating all these years, the one thing they seemed to have mastered - one could argue it was near purely a human war with some non-men in the mix ), they've been the big loser up til now. By the numbers, Kellhus inflicted more misery on TGO than Golgotterath, so now with him out of the way, maybe Earwa can get some peace and quite ( bit of humor there ... no more babies crying ... oh, forget it ). Point is, our expectations have been thwarted at every turn - so here we're crying in our beers over the ending of TUC only to discover in the next books humans will rise ...
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When it comes to predation, I remember that the Inchoroi have no choice, just like animals don't. People like Shae and other human Consult members did. Honestly, I can't say I blame them. They likely believe that changing their ways will accomplish nothing. Cynics, if you will.
Oftentimes, I think #TeamConsult. Now? I might as well join the Consult now that Proyas is gone. :(
so here we're crying in our beers over the ending of TUC only to discover in the next books humans will rise ...
IMO? Too little, too late.
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IMO? Too little, too late.
Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.
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IMO? Too little, too late.
Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.
This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.
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IMO? Too little, too late.
Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.
This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.
Now with Kellhus and his Zaudunyanni rubbish gone, it does.
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IMO? Too little, too late.
Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.
This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.
Well, Dora, I like your posts and I think you're worth saving, hope you stick around ( one could argue we're denizens of Earwa given our dedication to this forum ).
@Red +1
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As Kellhus was blindsided in TUC, so will the Dunsult in TNG.
Yes, I think I've been thinking about this all wrong - the whole TNG and Consult has been terrifying to read in the books, but from a historical perspective, The Inchoroi have been a disaster .. Point is, our expectations have been thwarted at every turn - so here we're crying in our beers over the ending of TUC only to discover in the next books humans will rise ...
You could really replace that story of the Inchoroi with pretty much any story of any main character and it plays out exactly the same.
Kellhus. Moenghus. Xerias. Conphas. Esmenet. Achamian. Proyas. All of them.
Even minor characters: Inrau. Xin.
Entire races: Nonmen. Emwama. Inchoroi.
Can anyone point out a main or minor character that achieved success? Has anyone won?
Really, humanity at large has been the only winner.
The Cuno-Inchoroi wars allowed for the-breaking-of-the-gates and their usurpation of the land of plenty. It lead them to their Nonmen tutors which ushered them into the age of bronze, iron, agriculture, and trade.
Even The First Apocalypse did little else but remove more completely the remaining Nonmen. Its not like it plunged them back into a millennium of tribalism or something.
The lead up to the Second Apocalypse untied humanity under one flag in a way even modern humans would strive for. How different would our world be with but 1 religion, 1 ruler, 1 consistent rule of law applied equally throughout the world?
The Inchoroi's fear lead humans (Dunyain) to usurp not only the Consult and the remaining aliens, but also gain control over the machinations of the gods - or at least the means to remove them from the playing field.
Humanity is, and has always been, the winners of this story. They have vanquished all foes, all aliens, all those that might bond them to slavery. Humanity will become a race of self-moving souls unlike any the universe has ever seen. Masters of a destiny entirely to their own making.
Granted, humans suck and will probably turn the world into a living hell rather than Eden itself, but that's their own fault. Can't be blaming Gods, Aliens from Space, and Aliens under the Mountains at that point.
They are left with only themselves, and by themselves they will parish or live - but at least that choice is their own.
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There is another, no less clear winner, namely Sranc.
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There is another, no less clear winner, namely Sranc.
At least when the No-God isn't around, they're pretty autonomous and able to make their own societies unencumbered by other races.
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As Kellhus was blindsided in TUC, so will the Dunsult in TNG.
Yes, I think I've been thinking about this all wrong - the whole TNG and Consult has been terrifying to read in the books, but from a historical perspective, The Inchoroi have been a disaster .. Point is, our expectations have been thwarted at every turn - so here we're crying in our beers over the ending of TUC only to discover in the next books humans will rise ...
You could really replace that story of the Inchoroi with pretty much any story of any main character and it plays out exactly the same.
Kellhus. Moenghus. Xerias. Conphas. Esmenet. Achamian. Proyas. All of them.
Even minor characters: Inrau. Xin.
Entire races: Nonmen. Emwama. Inchoroi.
Can anyone point out a main or minor character that achieved success? Has anyone won?
Really, humanity at large has been the only winner.
The Cuno-Inchoroi wars allowed for the-breaking-of-the-gates and their usurpation of the land of plenty. It lead them to their Nonmen tutors which ushered them into the age of bronze, iron, agriculture, and trade.
Even The First Apocalypse did little else but remove more completely the remaining Nonmen. Its not like it plunged them back into a millennium of tribalism or something.
The lead up to the Second Apocalypse untied humanity under one flag in a way even modern humans would strive for. How different would our world be with but 1 religion, 1 ruler, 1 consistent rule of law applied equally throughout the world?
The Inchoroi's fear lead humans (Dunyain) to usurp not only the Consult and the remaining aliens, but also gain control over the machinations of the gods - or at least the means to remove them from the playing field.
Humanity is, and has always been, the winners of this story. They have vanquished all foes, all aliens, all those that might bond them to slavery. Humanity will become a race of self-moving souls unlike any the universe has ever seen. Masters of a destiny entirely to their own making.
Granted, humans suck and will probably turn the world into a living hell rather than Eden itself, but that's their own fault. Can't be blaming Gods, Aliens from Space, and Aliens under the Mountains at that point.
They are left with only themselves, and by themselves they will parish or live - but at least that choice is their own.
But they won't be free, rather, it is the world itself that will be free from the Gods, moving according to its own. The Dûnyain will still be machines, but now they can truly go crazy without damnation hindering them in any way. What will they do? It's in their nature to keep striving higher and higher, more and more grotesque displays of intellect.
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But they won't be free, rather, it is the world itself that will be free from the Gods, moving according to its own. The Dûnyain will still be machines, but now they can truly go crazy without damnation hindering them in any way. What will they do? It's in their nature to keep striving higher and higher, more and more grotesque displays of intellect.
Right.
[Humans] are left with only themselves, and by themselves they will parish or live - but at least that choice is their own.
But hey, they beat out all the evil aliens and stopped the gods themselves.
I'd still call that a win, though what the Dunyain do moving forward might change that.
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Yeah I agree and I quite like it. Bakker breaks another fantasy trope here (I think) by ultimately making humans the superior race.
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IMO? Too little, too late.
Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.
This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.
Well, Dora, I like your posts and I think you're worth saving, hope you stick around ( one could argue we're denizens of Earwa given our dedication to this forum ).
@Red +1
I have no intention of going anywhere, but Earwa is a crapsack world and I honestly believe that things won't get better at all. As I've said in my rage quit post, I don't think there is any fixing it.
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IMO? Too little, too late.
Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.
This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.
Well, Dora, I like your posts and I think you're worth saving, hope you stick around ( one could argue we're denizens of Earwa given our dedication to this forum ).
@Red +1
I have no intention of going anywhere, but Earwa is a crapsack world and I honestly believe that things won't get better at all. As I've said in my rage quit post, I don't think there is any fixing it.
But remember the parts where e.g. Mimara sees her mother through the Judging Eye and when Sorweel and that Holca are saved. They are so beautiful... it hurts to let go...
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Yeah I agree and I quite like it. Bakker breaks another fantasy trope here (I think) by ultimately making humans the superior race.
Definitely there is usually some kind of 'elves are good at this, and dwarves do that, and humans are somewhere in the middle'. I haven't read much that has humans obliterating all the other fantastic creatures/races lol.
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IMO? Too little, too late.
Why so? Just because humans got kicked in the ass with the failure of TGO? Earth history has yielded worse horrors than Earwa, albeit not cosmic. Don't ever give up.
This has nothing to do with Earth history. I just don't think Earwa is worth saving. Certainly not now.
Well, Dora, I like your posts and I think you're worth saving, hope you stick around ( one could argue we're denizens of Earwa given our dedication to this forum ).
@Red +1
I have no intention of going anywhere, but Earwa is a crapsack world and I honestly believe that things won't get better at all. As I've said in my rage quit post, I don't think there is any fixing it.
But remember the parts where e.g. Mimara sees her mother through the Judging Eye and when Sorweel and that Holca are saved. They are so beautiful... it hurts to let go...
Honestly? Not to me. The characters who are "saved" either never mattered to me or they stopped mattering, so they are not sufficient to me. Sorweel is the only exception(well, maybe) and I think he got shafted despite being saved.
I know that I am being very biased here, but that is hardly unique.
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Honestly? Not to me. The characters who are "saved" either never mattered to me or they stopped mattering, so they are not sufficient to me. Sorweel is the only exception(well, maybe) and I think he got shafted despite being saved.
I know that I am being very biased here, but that is hardly unique.
This is very y pessimistic view to the series, to me. And, I'm not saying youbdont have a right to your opinion. Its just I see the exact opposite. Of say the characters left, are the most important throughout the entirety of the series.
Akka- Been there since day one. Has come a long way and I think the stage is set for him to redeem himself in so many ways. You know, like saving the world...
Esme- she is the world...
Mimara- quite frankly the most important character left with the ability to do know god knows what to keep humanity alive.
Mimara's Baby- Baby Kellhus?
Meppa- the last of the Psukhe and could play a huge role.
Serwa- while some think she's dead, I do not. And, will be vital to TNG.
Moe JR- The Scyvendli chieftain, who has a choice to side with humanity or the Consult. I think he'll surprise us the most.
I could keep going. Just because your dear Proyasnis dead, doesn't mean that vital characters are still not alive. Don't take this the wrong way Dora, as I'm not trying to be rude. You seem to see things through a very small lenses, and if they don't conform to your view, then, well, you seem to think them useless. And, that is farther from the truth than conceivably possible. Plenty of important characters still floating around. Hell, more than likely, a guy named Kellhus who could be waging a war on the Gods, to end damnation. While counting on these other characters to dispatch the NG. I don't know wether Tao or Tleilaxu said it, but we've been surprised at every turn against our expectations. It would therefore make sense for humanity to pull through when all looks lost, and hardly a chance at all at succeeding.
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Of say the characters left, are the most important throughout the entirety of the series.
Of all those listed, only Akka matters to me now. And honestly, I don't necessarily view them as useless in general, I just don't care about them much. Like I said, they either stopped mattering or they never mattered to me. And since the world is not very desirable to me, I see no reason to be anything other than well, how I am. #TeamNOGOD.
Hell, more than likely, a guy named Kellhus who could be waging a war on the Gods, to end damnation.
I'll believe that when I see it.
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Hell, more than likely, a guy named Kellhus who could be waging a war on the Gods, to end damnation.
I'll believe that when I see it.
It's not far fetched in my view. I think I'm understanding this correctly when I say one of Bakker's "points" is that if there are gods/God, then they are not "completely" above it all and have to follow at least some laws of physics/reality ( otherwise TNG would not be possible, no such thing has hiding from the gods or obilivion ). Ergo, it's possible a human ( perhaps other intelligent sentients ) would well forge a path to match their capabilities, maybe even surpass them. And there appears to be evidence humans have surpassed all "others" with Tirtriga/Shae/Kellhus elevating past any Quya. Perhaps a big reveal in the next series will be why Bakker puts humanity's potential so high ( at the same time illuminating the waste of that potential with the horror of depravity - but could be either a "mistake" by the gods forging human souls or intentional by one of them to create allies against other gods ). It's kinda like humans are the best of all things ( virus: we spread fast, insects: we coordinate and sacrifice for something more/larger, consciousness: we elevate beyond what seems possible, predatory: we'll fight each other in the absence of a common enemy and even then some, driving change and ambition ) ... add in an impressive constitution to suffer ( perhaps a gift from the non-men during our development ) and you have a durable, motivated, creative and curious species with the weakness of recklessness ( we can't stop ourselves from over doing it/going to far, hence we have The Mangaecca screwing everyone over because they just HAD to enter the Ark ). TNG now puts humanity into a pressure cooker - I don't think we break. I think we boil over and win.
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And, your reiterating my point for me Dora Vee. Its whats important to YOU. Not what could be important to the plot of the series going forward. And, its not only being written for the poor Proyas-less soul of Dora Vee. You're only looking at things through the lens of what you want. And it don't matter one iota what you want.
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Dora Vee, I'm not being a smartass. I've just come to learn that with this series, what we want, rarely comes to fruition. Sucks Proyas died Nd the manner he died broke my heart.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Me too. But, its a very likely possibility. We know that Kellhuanis not in the Outside, and really I can't believe he didn't have contengencies. Bakker first said, "Kellhus is dead.", then "Kellhus is dead but not done.". I feel the latter is true, since it was his end statement. I think Kellhus believed in humanity. Hence, trying to destroy the Consult and plumbing the Hells with the Diamos. No, I feel he isn't done.
Here's my prediction. Right it down, bookmark it. Humanity will survive TNG and Kellhus will defeat the Gods and rewrite the the Outside. To make life and death better for humanity. I was right when I predicted before TGO that Kellhus loved Esme and was trying to save the world, confirmed. I think Bakker will surprise so many with the way TNG goes. You know why I think no questions about haloes? Because, Kellhus will end up being holy, just as Mimara is. Mimara haloes are silver, because she has always been holy. Now, here me out. Bakker said we've seen every form of the afterlife (damnation, salvation and oblivion) except redemption. Kellhus gold haloes are that of Redemption.
But, we know the series picks up weeks after Resumption.
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Full disclosure: I AM a pile of shit.
So so hope I don't drive anyone away, but honesty is the greatest form of respect and I can honestly say I laughed hard when Kellhus kicked Proyas back off the side of the ledge the 2nd time. He COMPLETELY fucks him over, pulls him back up, explains to him that he's amazing and accomplished the impossible and kicks him back over because of ( very suspect logic here ) "something must be eaten" - it was so completely fucked up, I had to re-read it to ensure I understood it correctly. Have to say, I absolutely loved it, so fucking evil/nasty. It's this kinda shit makes me love these books so much.
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Full disclosure: I AM a pile of shit.
So so hope I don't drive anyone away, but honesty is the greatest form of respect and I can honestly say I laughed hard when Kellhus kicked Proyas back off the side of the ledge the 2nd time. He COMPLETELY fucks him over, pulls him back up, explains to him that he's amazing and accomplished the impossible and kicks him back over because of ( very suspect logic here ) "something must be eaten" - it was so completely fucked up, I had to re-read it to ensure I understood it correctly. Have to say, I absolutely loved it, so fucking evil/nasty. It's this kinda shit makes me love these books so much.
This is exactly why I was glad the Ordeal failed in the end.