Other Titles > Disciple of the Dog

Just started this...posting my thoughts (and just general discussion)

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Wilshire:
 ;) Oh I see it now.

Francis Buck:
So, I had written out a pretty big response to this discussion several days (maybe a week?) ago, but I had done so on my Kindle, and near the end something fucked up and I lost it. Nearly threw my Kindle across the room. I actually try to actively avoid writing anything lengthy on it, since it's so sensitive and even a slight mishap can make you lose everything, but I just got caught up in the post. Regardless, I'm going to try and say what I wanted to say in the first place, but in an abbreviated version (I still don't have a working computer with internet, I'm using my girlfriend's laptop to post this, but I should have a working PC by the weekend, thank Christ).

So anyway, I want to say that there are a number of excellent points and arguments in this thread. I want to reiterate that I do not think Bakker is some kind of woman-hating misogynist by any means. That being said, I absolutely think that his approach to female characters in the TSA series is inherently flawed -- again, it's virtually the only major problem that I personally find in the work. Additionally, I must say that I do believe there's a very slight level of bias going on; I think people love this series so much that they're wearing some vaguely rose-tinted glasses regarding it. I'd actually like to see a thread where people discuss the weaknesses of the TSA series in general.

Now, my personal issue with Bakker's handling of the female characters in TSA is not that they aren't strong characters in-and-of-themselves. I think every major character in the series is fantastically developed. My issue is that he keeps hitting the same notes with his female characters, over and over and over. And, most importantly, not a single one of them is characterized without an emphasis placed on sexuality. Not a single female POV character. Let's list the big ones:

Esmenet (whore)
Mimara (whore/slave)
Serwe (concubine/sex slave)
Psatma (sex slave)

I mean...I genuinely can't understand how people don't see an issue with this. We have this incredible variety of male characters, all very well developed and deep, all with wildly different backgrounds and professions...and yet every single female POV character is incredibly sexualized. Every one of them has graphic, detailed sex scenes. Three of them get raped in graphic detail, often more than once. Psatma was like a breath of a fresh air, she started out so strong. An old, powerful, non-sexualized female character. Awesome.

But then she gets young and attractive (by fucking someone, mind you) and is promptly bought by a male character for the purpose of sexual service. It's almost comical to me.

Now, this is usually when people bring up the fact that Bakker's world is one where women are "objectively inferior", and even he himself has stated that his intention was to portray the oppression that women felt in historical times. That's fine. That's good. It's an excellent idea. But you can't just say that and then proceed to have every female POV character be heavily preoccupied with sexuality. That's not real life. It's not realistic. Why isn't there a single female POV that's unattractive to men (again, Psatma started that way, but it didn't last long)? Why does every single female POV have to be depicted in graphic sex scenes? Why does every single female POV, in one way or another, act as the oppressed sexual slave and/or whore to a male? It's just ridiculous to me. It's immersion breaking, honestly. And then I heard that Bakker's editor suggested Conphas be made a female. FUCKING BRILLIANT. I can't even describe how great that would've been in my view. It would have turned everything onto its head, and yet he said no. Why?

Look, I don't want to offend or incite anyone to anger here. I love TSA. It is, without question, my favorite fantasy series ever. It's monolithic in its brilliance. And again, I do not for a single second believe that Bakker is a genuine misogynist. I just think it's an unfortunate quirk in his writing. Even the greatest artists of all time had their flaws, and this is one of his. That's my opinion, anyway.

Royce:
I do think that it can be justified to describe women as being "sexual objects", even today that is the case, and it was
certainly the case back in the day. I think it is a realistic view. Women are supressed in any way possible all over the world,
although women have gained more and more power and freedom over the years. Who is running the show? on every fucking level there are men. Forget Merkel in Germany or what not, she answers to men in the end anyway.

Maybe Bakker is showing us that although women can be strong individually, they are supressed either way by a male/masculin/control system. The opposite as in the female/feminin/chaos "system" might in the end overthrow
their counterpart. Then you have Kellhus who transcends both of these systems, as a final solution maybe?

I think that it is down to what gets to you on a personal level. If his portrayal of women disgusts you, I can totally
see that, but I can`t help but think that it is supposed to be this way. Maybe the female/feminin/chaos system get
their revenge in the next volume. I wait with my judgement until the series is finished. But I think that either way,
this is not something that will make me like the series less, because as I have mentioned before, it is just fantasy:)


 

Wilshire:

--- Quote from: Francis Buck on January 17, 2014, 04:34:20 am ---I mean...I genuinely can't understand how people don't see an issue with this.

--- End quote ---

That's about 1/2 of the problem. The other half being that the other side feels the same way.
Having no comprehension, or wholesale dismissal , of the other sides' argument makes any conversation pointless, imo.

I mean maybe thats where a disagreement starts, but at some point if no one sees merit in the other side, you might as well agree to disagree.

lol my own hypocrisy in my non-participating participation is not lost on me.

Aural:
I think there is a tendency among people who dislike the series to confuse depiction with indorsement to some extent. Other than that, I agree with Francis Buck almost entirely.

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