Meppa is X (II)

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Wilshire

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« Reply #135 on: April 04, 2016, 06:12:47 pm »
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.
The Inchoroi/Consult are inept at their own craft, them making a mistake they can't repeat - like some random sranc spilling some beaker of melted human toenails into the skin-spy vat thus making a soul - seems within reason.
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MSJ

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« Reply #136 on: April 04, 2016, 06:14:24 pm »
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.
The Inchoroi/Consult are inept at their own craft, them making a mistake they can't repeat - like some random sranc spilling some beaker of melted human toenails into the skin-spy vat thus making a soul - seems within reason.

Thats great Wilshire, what a imagination.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Blackstone

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« Reply #137 on: April 04, 2016, 06:23:52 pm »
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.

I'm going to agree with the "happy accident" on the part of the Consult. They seem to be blundering around with the Tekne. As far as we know, the skin spies are the first weapons race that has been created since the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. It seems more plausible to me that one of the Consult was tinkering around and did it on accident than Moe giving a skin spy a soul. We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).

I think it probable that Moe learned of the skin spy through his skin spy interrogations and told Maithanet about it, but I don't think it would have been necessary to draw the Mandate to Kellhus's side since he was so obviously the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (an Anasurimbor shows up and is able to discern the first evidence of the Consult's existence in 300 years). Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #138 on: April 04, 2016, 06:41:15 pm »
Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.
To be fair, if Moe and the Fanim won, the Mandate would basically need to capitulate to him instead. He's still an Anasurimbor.

Revealing Simas was just to ease that transition, but not all all necessary for his plans, regardless of the outcome. Why not teach the skin-spy sorcery himself and make it into some ultra-uber-meta-psukhe-gnositic-diamos wizard that he could wield to destroy the world, rather than sending it off to some dusty library to rot and then out it himself?

A tool of such fast importance and power would not be so easily disposed for no perceptible gain.

And, by the same arguments those of you posted above, if he did it once, why not do it a million times? Make a whole army, hell a whole nation, THE WORLD EVEN, of skin-spy Psukhari absolutely dominated by him and preciously attuned to his will?  They would be unconquerable, and he wouldn't need to send for his son off in Ishual to muck up his plans, or waste his time with silly Maithanet and his tenuous grasp on the Thousand Temples.

This is why the Meta-Moenghus argument is ridiculous. The Psukhe ruins the plot of the books if its allowed to continue. Having Moe be a master of the psukhe AND the tekne... C'mon. He only had 30 years wallowing in the basement of some old mansion with bad plumbing.
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MSJ

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« Reply #139 on: April 04, 2016, 07:10:58 pm »
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal  account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #140 on: April 04, 2016, 07:11:44 pm »
Also not being able to replicate a process doesn't sound very scientific to me, and that's the tekne.
Fortuitous accidents happen all the time when science-ing.



Can you give me some real life examples.

the Skin Spies are said to be new and they managed to reproduce them.

H

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« Reply #141 on: April 04, 2016, 07:16:44 pm »
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.

I'm going to agree with the "happy accident" on the part of the Consult. They seem to be blundering around with the Tekne. As far as we know, the skin spies are the first weapons race that has been created since the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. It seems more plausible to me that one of the Consult was tinkering around and did it on accident than Moe giving a skin spy a soul. We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).

I think it probable that Moe learned of the skin spy through his skin spy interrogations and told Maithanet about it, but I don't think it would have been necessary to draw the Mandate to Kellhus's side since he was so obviously the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy (an Anasurimbor shows up and is able to discern the first evidence of the Consult's existence in 300 years). Why would they need the extra nudge of Maithanet showing them a skin spy in their midst? So that makes me think the whole thing was part of Moe's failed plan to take control of the Three Seas himself.

Well, from what we understand (very little) of Grafting the Onta though is rather different the "en-souling" something.  Inchoroi already have souls, the problem is that they didn't naturally see the Onta (i.e. are of the Few).  What the graft saught to do is add that perception.  Considering the results though, they seemed to have failed spectacularly at getting more than the "normal" reproductive rate for the Few.  This would probably mean that there is more to being one of the Few than just some "perceptual" mutation.  But I am getting away from the point here.

The fact is, Scott told us that sometimes, through forces unknown, even animals are known to have acquired souls.  I find the chances that the Consult just oops, made a skin-spy with a soul quite low.  In fact, there is a plausible reason to think that they might not even be able to make skin-spies at the moment (but I admit, this is unlikely).  Even besides this, what that would point to me is that the skin-spy acquired a soul, not made with one.  It isn't outside the realm of possibility that through Moe interrogating one, it somehow stumbled on a paradox which it apprehended, or that Moe inadvertently "enlightened" it though questioning.

I find the theory plausible.  More plausible to me than Moe somehow learning about a sleeper cell from another sleeper cell.  Why would anyskin-spy know where the other was?  That just seems like a bad idea, even if it is plausible, but Aurang seems to be quite unhappy when he learns that one skin-spy met with another:

Quote
“After delivering the Shriah’s message to Gotian, I met with Gaörtha—”
The small face grimaced. “You met with him? Did I sanction this?”
“N-no. But the whore asked me to find Achamian for her, and I knew Gaörtha had been assigned to watch him.”

So, I guess each is plausible in it's own way.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #142 on: April 04, 2016, 07:32:03 pm »
I'm not a believer in coincidence in real-life.  I am definitely not a believer in coincidence in Earwa though.

I find it plausible that the Simas-agent's creation had something to do with Moe.  Of course, it's as likely that it was some other kind of "happy accident."  The only "clue" that we get is how fortuitous it is that Maith gets to "unmask" Simas to get the Mandate on their side.

 We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery) than Moe (who to our knowledge does not have the ability to transmit souls from a person to a skin spy).

 

the only evidence we have is what Maithanet said. Indeed they grafted it multiple times which is my point. 6 times to be precise. They then made the skin spy and recreated it loads of times.

Well he can let a soul talk through him with respect to Skaurus and his message to the Emperor using his Magic. We've seen a demon yank out a Cish soul by grabbing their sorcery and pulling. We've seen souls placed in "inanimate" objects. They exist as parts of the locks of the Coffers, in a doll. Mek on the walls of Dagliash threaten to remove Seswatha soul or separate it so he is just an animal.

Ofc it could all be playing out as stated and this is just an over active imagination. Least we might find out soon!!

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« Reply #143 on: April 04, 2016, 07:38:14 pm »
Indeed they grafted it multiple times which is my point. 6 times to be precise. They then made the skin spy and recreated it loads of times.

Eh, just to nitpick this again (I already did above), but the Graft to see the Onta and adding a soul are probably unrelated.  Inchoroi all have souls, they just weren't of the Few so they couldn't see the Onta and work sorcery.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #144 on: April 04, 2016, 07:39:47 pm »
Just to state i'm not sure about either theory. However by taking one side and letting others counter it, i get a much better idea than if i just sat and thought about it myself :)

Blackstone

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« Reply #145 on: April 04, 2016, 07:40:28 pm »
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

 
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Blackstone

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« Reply #146 on: April 04, 2016, 07:41:44 pm »
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal  account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)
Ha! Me thinks the one with the crackpot theory is the one that needs to make excuses ;)
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themerchant

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« Reply #147 on: April 04, 2016, 07:41:53 pm »
Indeed they grafted it multiple times which is my point. 6 times to be precise. They then made the skin spy and recreated it loads of times.

Eh, just to nitpick this again (I already did above), but the Graft to see the Onta and adding a soul are probably unrelated.  Inchoroi all have souls, they just weren't of the Few so they couldn't see the Onta and work sorcery.

I was replying to this "We have more evidence to support the Consult (who once before grafted sorcery)"

when i said grafted multiple times (6) I wasn't talking about putting a soul in, although it of course is an important distinction. Which i hadn't noted.

themerchant

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« Reply #148 on: April 04, 2016, 07:43:39 pm »
It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Yeah this is the PROBLEM with the theory. who taught the skinspy sorcery. Specifically the Gnosis, only the Mandate and the Consult have Gnostic schools at the time. Various workarounds are using a soul that already knows it.

MSJ

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« Reply #149 on: April 04, 2016, 07:44:11 pm »
This all I have left to say on the subject. Meppa is a combination of Moe and Cnaüir's passion. You don't have to like it. You can argue against it til your hearts content. Make excuses, reason, whatever you like. When it is revealed I will simply post my PayPal  account and you may put a week salary in it for simply not seeing the truth. Thank you, and have a great day. Lol. :)
Ha! Me thinks the one with the crackpot theory is the one that needs to make excuses ;)

Ha, Ever are Men Deceived! I am resolute in my crackpottery!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,