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Messages - Yellow

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16
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« on: October 13, 2017, 05:48:29 pm »
Also, fwiw, I still don't think that was Ajokli. Too rational. Outside Kellhus fo sho.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« on: October 13, 2017, 05:46:41 pm »
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God."

Can you be more specific about that (I'm  assuming you're paraphrasing)? That wasn't my take on why the fields should be burned. To war against the God (who needs souls to sustain it) , not to wake it.

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I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.

Quote
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.

Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.

I'm nearing the end of my re-read and will post some thoughts on a few days, but this section is one of the points I wanted people's opinion on. I read this conversation numerous times, but there seems to be a logical gap in what Kellhus is saying to Proyas. Bakker's answer is typically unhelpful. YES he said that to Proyas. What does it mean, mate?

Anyway, I'll go into more detail once I've gathered my thoughts.

But on  the comment that he didn't know the NG was necessary - there's a chapter heading quote in TWLW that mentions the 144k, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have been aware of what the Inchoroi were trying to do. By extension, Kellhus (Lore Master extraordinaire) will also have been aware.

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You make some great observations. But for me, whatever way that Ajokli tricks Kellhus, I think his views of the God are his own. He's perfectly able to draw his own conclusions to the end. It's just that his agency is removed from him in the end :)

"The living shall not haunt the dead" is a fantastic line. I've often thought on what it means. I always thought it meant that the living' s sense of right and wrong - their notion of damnation - was what held the dammed in place... But then Bakker has shat on the idea of subjective truth leading to objective truth, so I don't see how the living *can* haunt the dead.

It's still a great line.

20
General Earwa / Re: [TUC SPOILERS] Foreshadowing in the books.
« on: October 07, 2017, 06:15:06 pm »
I always interpreted that section as Kellhus imposing his godhood image by referring to one of the hundred as an equal. Manipulation rather than actually his he sees himself.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Cover
« on: October 07, 2017, 06:08:05 pm »
Oh, there's no reason for that ;)

The original PoN hardbacks with the script were fantastic (black, yellow, red). Perfectly matched the interior design. Me no like Stock Face Man.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Cover
« on: October 07, 2017, 09:06:23 am »
Yeah, it's completely the norm, unfortunately.

I always thought the faces on the covers were just supposed to be done random Ordealman.

23
Quote from:  Smoker Loki
Kellhus at some point expressed a very low opinion of the God of Gods, which throws me off noticeably. Not in the sense that I'm perturbed by it, but in the sense of making the subject much murkier than it was before. And I'm not even sure Kellhus should be taken seriously there.

To your point, I'm always unsure that when Kellhus talks of the God of Gods he just is talking about the 100. All, I've ever taking seriously that he's said about the God of Gods, is that he sleeps. Quite frankly, I think all his commentary TGO onwards is all about the 100.

I'm just re-reading TUC and got to the point where Proyas asks Kellhus about the God, and his reply was that it is as blind to its own Creation as Men are to themselves. He definitely isn't referring to the 100, as they had just been discussing the 100.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« on: October 05, 2017, 04:28:53 pm »
Are Ajokli's character traits (so far as they have been known to humans) simply a reflection of the fact that he possessed Kellhus and briefly manifested in the world at Golgotterath? Has he always had some reflection of Kellhus within him? After all, time and cause / effect don't really apply.

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So was it Kellhus manipulating people to see these "divine" manifestations?


No... Or at least, not at first. In TTT we have a POV from Kellhus in which he's unable to explain to himself where they come from. He remarks that they cast no shadow (from memory).

26
I don't think it was ever inferred that Nau-Cayuti sent the prophecy, though Celmomas said he could see him (brain failing at point of death?). Rather, it was inferred to be Gilgaol, though it seems it was actually Ajokli.

I think Bakker has come out against the idea of Subjective Truth leading to Objective Truth, and so I don't particularly buy into your idea.

Is the prophecy true? Has the world ended? Not yet, right?

There's also the words of Aurang to Soma in TWLW regarding the true and untrue prophecies, and how both must be observed. I've never been able to work out what was meant there, so I reserve judgment!

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The No-God / Re: The Mutilated: A Census
« on: September 22, 2017, 02:43:25 pm »
Fairly sure the Dunyain aren't able to lie to each other convincingly.

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The No-God / Re: The Mutilated: A Census
« on: September 22, 2017, 06:44:16 am »

Agreed, I don't think the Mutilated would waste time producing more Sranc. But as mentioned, I think we safely attribute at least some of TAE's Tekne novelties to the Mutilated - the Sayothi Skin-Spy, perhaps the Ursranc, the Tekne-Nuke, etc.


Can someone remind me who /what the Sayothi skin spy was, and why it may have something to do with the Mutilated? I don't remember it at all!

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Who actually liked TUC?
« on: September 17, 2017, 01:35:40 pm »
Maybe I don't understand your point, but we see Aurang in pretty much every book, right?

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Who actually liked TUC?
« on: September 15, 2017, 04:32:52 pm »
Yeah, fair enough.

I do think titles are very important, though.

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